How does the Strong Ability scale beyond +5?
I did some changes to the DN chart for lifting stuff with the Strong Ability. For example, with Strong +2, there would be no need to roll to pick up a small appliance (DN 2). For Strong +3, no need to roll to pick up a cumbersome crate (DN 4). Strong +4, auto-success to pick up another person (DN 6), and Strong +5, auto-success to pick up a refrigerator.
But what if you wanted to make an insanely-strong character, beyond Strong +5? And how would the DN chart continue and using what examples? I think that the next two DNs beyond 15 are 18 and 20 (three 6s and four 5s), but beyond that, who knows?
I hope this gets addressed in OVA Revised Edition, since strength is usually one of those abilities that vary so widely amongst multiple genres. Will the new Scale Ability come into play here?
Massive amounts of strength
Not sure, but I think using the revised edition, Scale would be the system required to solve this problem. Below is a copy from the revised edition weblog, I think it could work for you:
One of the recurring questions I see about the original OVA was "how well does it handle mecha?" Surely, giant robots are an integral part of anime, so it's a logical concern. But I've never honestly understood why mecha automatically follow a different subset of rules than any other character in the game. I have seen other RPGs devote entire new chapters for mecha, but at the end of the day, the only difference is one part of the book refers to an advantage as "speedy" and in another as "enhanced engines." It's unnecessary. Mecha are characters too, just a little bit bigger and with a pilot for a brain.
That said, there has been a glaring omission that makes running mecha games more problematic, and that's the question of scale. In OVA, everything is relative. The idea of an Ability ranked at +3 being excellent is compared to what would be average for that character. And what is average for a human being has very different implications than what is average for, say, an automobile. Even a slow, rattletrap truck is considerably faster than a marathon-running athlete.
To resolve this, there is now something called the Scale Advantage. Whenever these is a conflict of scale, the Game Master rules that one side or the other has a Scale Advantage. That side gets a +5 bonus to their roll. To use our previous example, a truck with -1 Slow would roll one pitiful die in a test of speed, while our marathon runner with Quick +3 would get 5 dice. But with the Scale Advantage, the truck can now muster 6 dice. A more fair comparison, surely.
However, in OVA, scale is a dynamic consideration. It's not possible to simply create a mecha scale, a starship scale, and a Death Star scale. If we revisit our example again, imagine our truck and runner both trying to navigate an alley way riddled with tight turns, heavy dumpsters, and obstructing buildings. Clearly the marathon runner is much more nimble than the hulking hooptie. The truck would have no Scale Advantage. In fact, if the surroundings are especially difficult to traverse, the Game Master may give the Scale Advantage to the runner! It's a quick, easy calculation, and requires no conversions, complex math, or other game-bogging considerations.
The idea of Scale Advantage being on a case-by-case basis, instead of a permanent part of a character, also allows different cinematic treatment of mecha. In Evangelion, Gundam, and other typical giant robot shows, mecha would have Scale Advantages for everything from Quick to Armored. On the other hand, these mecha can be torn to pieces by human combatants in shows like Project A-ko, and should receive few, if any, of these things.
Someone else familiar with scale is the mischievous kitsune Nazo. While perhaps not on quite the same level as towering mecha, Nazo's ability to alter her appearance and size makes her a dangerous adversary indeed.
One of the recurring questions I see about the original OVA was "how well does it handle mecha?" Surely, giant robots are an integral part of anime, so it's a logical concern. But I've never honestly understood why mecha automatically follow a different subset of rules than any other character in the game. I have seen other RPGs devote entire new chapters for mecha, but at the end of the day, the only difference is one part of the book refers to an advantage as "speedy" and in another as "enhanced engines." It's unnecessary. Mecha are characters too, just a little bit bigger and with a pilot for a brain.
That said, there has been a glaring omission that makes running mecha games more problematic, and that's the question of scale. In OVA, everything is relative. The idea of an Ability ranked at +3 being excellent is compared to what would be average for that character. And what is average for a human being has very different implications than what is average for, say, an automobile. Even a slow, rattletrap truck is considerably faster than a marathon-running athlete.
To resolve this, there is now something called the Scale Advantage. Whenever these is a conflict of scale, the Game Master rules that one side or the other has a Scale Advantage. That side gets a +5 bonus to their roll. To use our previous example, a truck with -1 Slow would roll one pitiful die in a test of speed, while our marathon runner with Quick +3 would get 5 dice. But with the Scale Advantage, the truck can now muster 6 dice. A more fair comparison, surely.
However, in OVA, scale is a dynamic consideration. It's not possible to simply create a mecha scale, a starship scale, and a Death Star scale. If we revisit our example again, imagine our truck and runner both trying to navigate an alley way riddled with tight turns, heavy dumpsters, and obstructing buildings. Clearly the marathon runner is much more nimble than the hulking hooptie. The truck would have no Scale Advantage. In fact, if the surroundings are especially difficult to traverse, the Game Master may give the Scale Advantage to the runner! It's a quick, easy calculation, and requires no conversions, complex math, or other game-bogging considerations.
The idea of Scale Advantage being on a case-by-case basis, instead of a permanent part of a character, also allows different cinematic treatment of mecha. In Evangelion, Gundam, and other typical giant robot shows, mecha would have Scale Advantages for everything from Quick to Armored. On the other hand, these mecha can be torn to pieces by human combatants in shows like Project A-ko, and should receive few, if any, of these things.
Someone else familiar with scale is the mischievous kitsune Nazo. While perhaps not on quite the same level as towering mecha, Nazo's ability to alter her appearance and size makes her a dangerous adversary indeed.
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Joe_Mello
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The ratings are all relative to the setting, so while a +1 might mean you have the strength of a football player in a typical high school setting, in a DBZ game, it could mean you're able to chuck boulders twice your size.
Joe_Mello: Could you make a common sense roll, please, Ryu?
Ryushikaze: With Smart?
Joe_Mello: Sure
*Ryushikaze rolls*
Joe_Mello: SHE'S DEAD!
Ryushikaze: With Smart?
Joe_Mello: Sure
*Ryushikaze rolls*
Joe_Mello: SHE'S DEAD!
If that's true, then what's the point of the DN chart under Strong?Joe_Mello wrote:The ratings are all relative to the setting, so while a +1 might mean you have the strength of a football player in a typical high school setting, in a DBZ game, it could mean you're able to chuck boulders twice your size.
I think that the DN chart for Strong should be chucked and have each level of Strong indicate a particular weight capacity. A roll would be made to see if you can push your limits to lift something normally outside of your capacity (perhaps to 2x lift capacity with a successful DN 8 test). Strong is one of those Abilities where wildly varying levels are more common.
However, I don't want to chuck more than 7 dice, so I think some sort of Scale trait would be useful here. I, personally, don't see what the problem would be in creating, as the blog entry states, a mecha scale, a starship scale, and a Death Star scale. It's perfectly feasible, but I'm open to different ideas on how to handle scale.
As for awkward moments such as a marathon-runner vs. a hulking hooptie in an alley way with obstacles, that's where the Size Weakness kicks in.
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Joe_Mello
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To provide concrete examples for an abstract concept.bushido11 wrote:If that's true, then what's the point of the DN chart under Strong?Joe_Mello wrote:The ratings are all relative to the setting, so while a +1 might mean you have the strength of a football player in a typical high school setting, in a DBZ game, it could mean you're able to chuck boulders twice your size.
Just because the book says X doesn't mean that X will always be true in every circumstance.
Joe_Mello: Could you make a common sense roll, please, Ryu?
Ryushikaze: With Smart?
Joe_Mello: Sure
*Ryushikaze rolls*
Joe_Mello: SHE'S DEAD!
Ryushikaze: With Smart?
Joe_Mello: Sure
*Ryushikaze rolls*
Joe_Mello: SHE'S DEAD!
The questions have pretty much been answered. If you're going to have all characters of similar power levels, using the 1-5 scale works just fine. If you're going to have a game with Goku and Bulma fighting side-by-side, then surely using the Scale Advantage for the Saiyan is appropriate.
The chart given in the book is merely an example, and of course won't apply to everyone. The Revised Game will be replacing precise measurements with more general descriptors. (ie. Instead of fall x number of feet, you might see "That's a pretty good ways..." and "No one could survive a fall like that!"
They're more general, and more in league with the theme of the rest of the game, where exacts are never given. As an added bonus, "No one could survive that fall!" makes just as much sense for a 6 inch fairy, a 6 foot human, and a 6 story mecha.
The chart given in the book is merely an example, and of course won't apply to everyone. The Revised Game will be replacing precise measurements with more general descriptors. (ie. Instead of fall x number of feet, you might see "That's a pretty good ways..." and "No one could survive a fall like that!"
They're more general, and more in league with the theme of the rest of the game, where exacts are never given. As an added bonus, "No one could survive that fall!" makes just as much sense for a 6 inch fairy, a 6 foot human, and a 6 story mecha.
This is good stuff right here, especially replacing precise measurements with general descriptors. The descriptors work no matter what scale you are, as you mentioned. A lifting chart using said descriptors would be great also, even if it was something like "a human lifting a (insert object here)", so that when different Scales interact, you can say "lifting that skyscraper would be like a human lifting a bus, Mr. Big-O."Clay wrote:The questions have pretty much been answered. If you're going to have all characters of similar power levels, using the 1-5 scale works just fine. If you're going to have a game with Goku and Bulma fighting side-by-side, then surely using the Scale Advantage for the Saiyan is appropriate.
The chart given in the book is merely an example, and of course won't apply to everyone. The Revised Game will be replacing precise measurements with more general descriptors. (ie. Instead of fall x number of feet, you might see "That's a pretty good ways..." and "No one could survive a fall like that!"
They're more general, and more in league with the theme of the rest of the game, where exacts are never given. As an added bonus, "No one could survive that fall!" makes just as much sense for a 6 inch fairy, a 6 foot human, and a 6 story mecha.
Have you considered utilizing the Scale Advantage as a multiplier to dice roll results when two or more entities of different Scales interact? Something like "for every difference there is of scale, the one with the advantage doubles the result of his rolls" or even that in the case of different scales interact, the one with the larger scale always wins.
In fact, you don't have to apply a single Scale to all traits. How about having to pick a specialty whenever you acquire the Scale Advantage to better fine-tune what is scaled and what isn't. In the instance of a character or vehicle that goes much, much faster than a human being, the human being can be Scale (Speed) +0, while the Honda Civic could be Scale (Speed) +4, so any rolls done by the Honda Civic to outrun the human could be multiplied by x16. Or just apply common sense and say that the Honda Civic leaves the person in the dust.
The basic idea behind the +5 Scale Advantage is that it starts the scale "over." ie. An average car will be equivalent to the nigh-superhuman fastest character alive (+5). I didn't want to get into variations on that, because it became too complicated and finicky. If you want more minute adjustments, just apply modifiers in the form of bonuses and penalties.
In the actual text for Scale, it states that if any two characters/vehicles/monsters/statted up pieces of paper would be two or more "scales" apart, they should not interact at all. You could go the multiplier route, but I think common sense should win here.
Finally, as for modifying results directly, this never happens in OVA. Once the dice read what they read, you never add, multiply, divide, or otherwise modify them in any form. I don't really want to break the mold for the sake of scale. Someone gave similar suggestions for Armor, either here or on the blog, and I gave the same response. They may be sound ideas, but just not in line with the rest of the game.
In the actual text for Scale, it states that if any two characters/vehicles/monsters/statted up pieces of paper would be two or more "scales" apart, they should not interact at all. You could go the multiplier route, but I think common sense should win here.
Finally, as for modifying results directly, this never happens in OVA. Once the dice read what they read, you never add, multiply, divide, or otherwise modify them in any form. I don't really want to break the mold for the sake of scale. Someone gave similar suggestions for Armor, either here or on the blog, and I gave the same response. They may be sound ideas, but just not in line with the rest of the game.
As for dice results never being fiddled with by any math, that's not true. Damage Multipliers fiddle with results to determine the amount of damage you deal (degree of success times Damage Multiplier).
So, to understand what you're saying, if in a contest, two entities with a difference in Scale by 1 compete, then the one with the scale advantage receives a +5 bonus, correct? And, should the Scale discrepancy go beyond a 1-level difference, the one with the higher scale simply wins, correct?
If that's the case, then I have no problem with the way the Scale Advantage is presented so far. Now, will there be examples of what each level of Scale means? And when we select the Scale Ability, will we need to specify what exactly needs to be scaled (like the example I presented with the human racing the Honda Civic)? If not, how do you address what is scaled and what is not?
And would negative Scale be a Weakness (like ant-sized characters)?
So, to understand what you're saying, if in a contest, two entities with a difference in Scale by 1 compete, then the one with the scale advantage receives a +5 bonus, correct? And, should the Scale discrepancy go beyond a 1-level difference, the one with the higher scale simply wins, correct?
If that's the case, then I have no problem with the way the Scale Advantage is presented so far. Now, will there be examples of what each level of Scale means? And when we select the Scale Ability, will we need to specify what exactly needs to be scaled (like the example I presented with the human racing the Honda Civic)? If not, how do you address what is scaled and what is not?
And would negative Scale be a Weakness (like ant-sized characters)?
While Damage uses a result as part of a formula, your original roll still remains unchanged. That is, you still rolled a certain number, and this certain number still beat another number by a certain amount. This isn't altered by addition, subtraction, or any other means.
As for Scale, it's not an "Ability" you buy. It's simply applied when it's appropriate. What situations apply and which do not is left up to Game Master's discretion.
Scale is never an "Ability" or a "Weakness" because it always is a two-edged sword. A vehicle that is faster than a human is automatically not as nimble as a human. A mecha may be able to STOMP humans, but it's not going to walk into a convenience store and buy a candy-bar. And when Saiyans get into a fight, pretty much EVERYTHING else is destroyed. In this way, Scale is never something you have to "pay" points for.
As for Scale, it's not an "Ability" you buy. It's simply applied when it's appropriate. What situations apply and which do not is left up to Game Master's discretion.
Scale is never an "Ability" or a "Weakness" because it always is a two-edged sword. A vehicle that is faster than a human is automatically not as nimble as a human. A mecha may be able to STOMP humans, but it's not going to walk into a convenience store and buy a candy-bar. And when Saiyans get into a fight, pretty much EVERYTHING else is destroyed. In this way, Scale is never something you have to "pay" points for.
So Scale is simply a trait then to differentiate between size discrepancy and is applicable when appropriate...makes sense. Will there still be a scale table or scale levels of sorts? And will the Size Weakness be replaced by Scale rules?
And since you brought up Saiyans into matters of Scale, what parameters will Scale cover besides size, payload, lifting capacity, and speed? Saiyans to me seem to go beyond the +5 Ability limit in terms of damage and health, to say the least. What would be the balancing factor to Scale rules applied to the destructive capability of a Saiyan?
And since you brought up Saiyans into matters of Scale, what parameters will Scale cover besides size, payload, lifting capacity, and speed? Saiyans to me seem to go beyond the +5 Ability limit in terms of damage and health, to say the least. What would be the balancing factor to Scale rules applied to the destructive capability of a Saiyan?
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Joe_Mello
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If you can use the word "exponentially," then Scale can apply.bushido11 wrote:And since you brought up Saiyans into matters of Scale, what parameters will Scale cover besides size, payload, lifting capacity, and speed?
Also, iirc there is no levels of Scale. It either applies or it doesn't.
For example, if there's a footrace between a man and a...
-horse: Scale does not apply
-car: Scale does apply
-jet: Scale does not apply because there is no check. The jet wins automatically.
Joe_Mello: Could you make a common sense roll, please, Ryu?
Ryushikaze: With Smart?
Joe_Mello: Sure
*Ryushikaze rolls*
Joe_Mello: SHE'S DEAD!
Ryushikaze: With Smart?
Joe_Mello: Sure
*Ryushikaze rolls*
Joe_Mello: SHE'S DEAD!
I hope the Scale concept gets plenty of coverage so that we (or just I) am not left scratching my head. I understand the gist of it, but I guess I'd have to see the actual book when it's released to know what's what. Now, will Scale be something that has to be listed on the character sheet or will it be something that's just innate to the character concept?Joe_Mello wrote:If you can use the word "exponentially," then Scale can apply.bushido11 wrote:And since you brought up Saiyans into matters of Scale, what parameters will Scale cover besides size, payload, lifting capacity, and speed?
Also, iirc there is no levels of Scale. It either applies or it doesn't.
For example, if there's a footrace between a man and a...
-horse: Scale does not apply
-car: Scale does apply
-jet: Scale does not apply because there is no check. The jet wins automatically.
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Joe_Mello
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It's an external modifier, like trying to run on a slippery floor, or flying a plane in the middle of a thunderstorm.bushido11 wrote: Now, will Scale be something that has to be listed on the character sheet or will it be something that's just innate to the character concept?
The man vs. tank example used elsewhere (and will likely end up in the book) should help with your issues.
Joe_Mello: Could you make a common sense roll, please, Ryu?
Ryushikaze: With Smart?
Joe_Mello: Sure
*Ryushikaze rolls*
Joe_Mello: SHE'S DEAD!
Ryushikaze: With Smart?
Joe_Mello: Sure
*Ryushikaze rolls*
Joe_Mello: SHE'S DEAD!