BESM & Random Anime

[Tenka]

Of course, OVA's going to be compared to BESM. And, to a lesser extent, to Random Anime. Without starting a war on which game's the kewlest, what makes OVA different? Or even compared to other RPGs in general: what makes OVA stand out?

[Mofarme]

I am also interested in Tenka's question.

What makes OVA so special?

Will it be able to be used in other genres, besides anime, much like BESM & RandomAnime?

Will it be a complete book? Will I be able to play mecha, horror or pulp with this set of rules?

Thanks!

[Clay]

OVA is indeed capable of any anime genre just by using the rules in the main book. However, new rules and concepts will be explored in "genre books" as well. So there's always something to look forward to. And even though it's geared for anime use, you could theoretically use it for anything your heart desires.

As for what makes it different, OVA is very easy and very consistent. While BESM, over time, has become a piecemeal assortment of additional rules made to fix former broken rules made to fix even older rules, OVA was built from the ground up and is a very solidly built system. There's also a single core mechanic that is used for everything, whether its fighting hordes of stock ninja or simply trying to pass that high school exam. And there has never been such an intuitive, easy to use character creation system. Creating your ideal hero is as simple as making a list of adjectives!

Also, the game includes a cast of sample characters that are featured throughout the book. All of the art is unique to OVA (unlike BESM, which often republishes work), and also features these same familiar faces again and again. Besides showing all the things you can do with the rules, I think it makes it more entertaining to read.

Now that I've tried to address your questions, I'm interested about this "RandomAnime." I've actually never heard of it. Is it another generic anime RPG system?

Thanks for your inquiry! And be on the lookout for a site update with new wallpapers ^_^

[Mofarme]

Thanks for your reply, Clay.

I am still interested in OVA.

About RandomAnime, here is the address of the publisher's website:

http://www.infernalfunhouse.com/

[Tenka]

OVA is indeed capable of any anime genre just by using the rules in the main book. However, new rules and concepts will be explored in "genre books" as well. So there's always something to look forward to. And even though it's geared for anime use, you could theoretically use it for anything your heart desires.

This lore is not meant for men to know.

Nor turtles, for that matter.

As for what makes it different, OVA is very easy and very consistent. While BESM, over time, has become a piecemeal assortment of additional rules made to fix former broken rules made to fix even older rules,

I wonder what you're refering to exactly. The rules are too few, to begin with, that so many can be broken. Of course, BESM went through a big Saiyan-like upgrade between 1e and 2e, but that was more adding to a barebone system than "fixing" it.

If the discussion can avoid turning into a flame war, whose responsability I would rather not bear, I'm actually interested in discussing the subject, as Tri-Stat is my favorite generic system.

Why I think that BESM is an elegant system is that Attributes can (1) be used to build everything, from a PC to a pet to an item, and (2) are most of the rules, so that even the GM doesn't have to remember the whole book. Aside from the very simple core (a few pages), he just has to remember what Attributes are used by the characters. The rest can be learnt at some other time, when the need arises (i.e. when a character/item is created with another of the Attributes).

You could also say that there is no useless Attribute on your BESM character sheet, in a similar way that there will be no useless attribute on your OVA character sheet. (This "Attribute" and that "attribute" are too very different beasts, I know; that was not the point here.)

OVA was built from the ground up and is a very solidly built system. There's also a single core mechanic that is used for everything, whether its fighting hordes of stock ninja or simply trying to pass that high school exam. And there has never been such an intuitive, easy to use character creation system. Creating your ideal hero is as simple as making a list of adjectives!

In the French RPG Scales from Croc, the players get to define and name their own attributes and skill groups. It seems to be very similar to what you hint to on your webpage. Something similar to that similar something is also in Castle Falkenstein, only this RPG provides a more extensive list (than does Scales) of attributes to choose from or use as examples.

I've been a gamer for a score years, at some point GMing the same campaign several times a week. (Yes, we were all teenagers, and that was many years ago.) By the end of my last campaign, that's what I was using for my players: in addition to the main stats (the three same as in BESM, though borrowed from another RPG long before BESM was born), they got to define and name their own abilities. It was very free-form, though, and I could afford that because I knew my players well.

The problem is more when gamers don't know one another, so that they may think that they agree on something when they really don't. A same adjective can have slightly different meanings for different people, a "slightly" that can matter much in the case of game rules.

The problem is even worse when a player tries to bully the GM, saying stuff like "My character has Strong +3, so of course he's also very fast, since your speed depends on the strength of your muscles!" While I'm an experienced bastard GM with a silver tongue and an iron fist, not every game master out there is armed to deal with that particular brand of troublemakers (if only by politely requesting that they please shut up or leave). But then again, that's not as if a rule-heavy RPG like the present D&D prevented fierce fights over rules.

Also, the game includes a cast of sample characters that are featured throughout the book. All of the art is unique to OVA (unlike BESM, which often republishes work), and also features these same familiar faces again and again. Besides showing all the things you can do with the rules, I think it makes it more entertaining to read.

I agree with that. At least, it was very much the case with the second edition of Rêve de Dragon, another French RPG. Not only did it give a feeling of coherence to the whole book, it also made rules easier to understand. Mainly a psychological effect, sure, but if it works...

Now that I've tried to address your questions, I'm interested about this "RandomAnime." I've actually never heard of it. Is it another generic anime RPG system?

Yes. Morfarme gave you the link. What I saw of it didn't make me so eager to try it, though I would certainly have bought it anyway, had they offered a PDF version. I'm moving from apartment to apartment every year. Next time is tomorrow morning. I cannot afford to pile up material possessions.

But for that, why Random Anime didn't do much to grab me? I didn't like the idea of creating a character from a template, even if the same archetypes do reappear in most anime. Also, I didn't like the attributes.

Thanks for your inquiry! And be on the lookout for a site update with new wallpapers ^_^

... and a character sheet sample? Those always make for great teasers.

Though in the case of Random Anime, for me, it was more of a letdown, since that's how I learnt about the 8 basic attributes.

[Clay]

If the discussion can avoid turning into a flame war, whose responsability I would rather not bear, I'm actually interested in discussing the subject, as Tri-Stat is my favorite generic system.

Sorry to step on toes, it was not my intention. I just find myself annoyed by a few key facets of BESM, mainly the fact that the basic "tri-stat system" is broken enough to warrant special attributes to fix them. (Want a Strong but slow/clumsy character? You have to make a character with high body, then purchase enough Flaws to negate a high Body's inherent dextrous competency...The facets of strong/tough and Fast/agile just should never be combined in my train of thought.)

There's also the fact that they added this to the Second Edition revised...

Paraphrasing, Basically new Trick Shots allowed you to take a penalty on your attack to give a penalty to your target's defense. It had like 3 levels, with the following effects. Attack +2, Opponent's Defense +2; Attack +4, Defense +4; Attack +6, Defense +6....

Sorry, but it just made me laugh. ^_^

I don't mean to imply BESM is a bad system. It's not. It's just my direct competition, and I felt it neccessary to bring up a few of my gripes with the system.

In the French RPG Scales from Croc, the players get to define and name their own attributes and skill groups. It seems to be very similar to what you hint to on your webpage. Something similar to that similar something is also in Castle Falkenstein, only this RPG provides a more extensive list (than does Scales) of attributes to choose from or use as examples.

I think I gave the wrong impression here. Though you CAN make up your own descriptors, the book includes many, many built into the system, described in nature and game use. Notes are included throughout to help clarify their use as well.

And I won't claim that the Ricochet mechanics are unbreakable. In fact, it's very easy to abuse the rules if you're so inclined. I'm afraid if you want a system to babysit your munchkin players, OVA won't be for you. There are many good rulesystems that concentrate on good balance (D20 being among them). Ricochet is meant to allow ultimate freedom in a hard to recreate genre. But this also means it's perfectly possible to buy only the "good" Abilities and clobber everyone else in the game.

I felt this was neccessary to recreate the dynamics of true to anime gameplay. It's made more obvious when you see licensed anime RPGs. The main cast is never built on the same number of points.

Of course, I have included a few optional rules to help curb rampant abuse, but the fact remains that it is breakable.

I agree with that. At least, it was very much the case with the second edition of Rêve de Dragon, another French RPG. Not only did it give a feeling of coherence to the whole book, it also made rules easier to understand. Mainly a psychological effect, sure, but if it works...

I'm glad you think so. ^^

Yes. Morfarme gave you the link. What I saw of it didn't make me so eager to try it, though I would certainly have bought it anyway, had they offered a PDF version. I'm moving from apartment to apartment every year. Next time is tomorrow morning. I cannot afford to pile up material possessions.

But for that, why Random Anime didn't do much to grab me? I didn't like the idea of creating a character from a template, even if the same archetypes do reappear in most anime. Also, I didn't like the attributes.

I checked it out as well, (thank you for the link, Mofarme!) and wasn't notably impressed. But it's hard to judge a system based on a slew of statistics. But yes, templates is an odd choice for a generic system. Templates are great for specific genres, but tend to be confusing and limiting for something so broad as anime. (Much why I was completely disgusted by BESM d20, even though a friend did all the new art).

... and a character sheet sample? Those always make for great teasers.

Though in the case of Random Anime, for me, it was more of a letdown, since that's how I learnt about the 8 basic attributes.

I would, but unfortunately, I feel it would give a bad impression of the game. Because there's no hardcoded stats, no derived statistics, or other extras of the sort, it looks AWFULLY barren.

But it works exceptionally well in playtests, I just hope you can take my word on it till you can get a copy of the rules.

Again, thanks for posting!

[Tenka]

If the discussion can avoid turning into a flame war, whose responsability I would rather not bear, I'm actually interested in discussing the subject, as Tri-Stat is my favorite generic system.

Sorry to step on toes, it was not my intention.

Good, because you missed them and I wouldn't want to think of you as clumsy enough to miss such a big target. I don't feel offended when some sinner dares not to share my personal preferences, and I very much prefer an honest answer to the usual polite circumlocutions.

A polite honest answer, which yours was. A motivated polite honest answer, which yours is:

I just find myself annoyed by a few key facets of BESM, mainly the fact that the basic "tri-stat system" is broken enough to warrant special attributes to fix them. (Want a Strong but slow/clumsy character? You have to make a character with high body, then purchase enough Flaws to negate a high Body's inherent dextrous competency...The facets of strong/tough and Fast/agile just should never be combined in my train of thought.)

There is a huge ongoing Roll Over Mechanic thread on the GoO boards that proves that you're not alone to be bothered by that aspect of the system. It doesn't bother me because I accept the three stats as not being very important in themselves: Attributes and Defects are what makes a character.

There's also the fact that they added this to the Second Edition revised...

Paraphrasing, Basically new Trick Shots allowed you to take a penalty on your attack to give a penalty to your target's defense. It had like 3 levels, with the following effects. Attack +2, Opponent's Defense +2; Attack +4, Defense +4; Attack +6, Defense +6....

Sorry, but it just made me laugh. ^_^

I won't forgive you! If only because there's no need. The same Roll Over Mechanic thread I mentioned also tackles the "Trick Shot" issue. Many find, like you, that it is clumsy; some insist that a change to a roll-over mechanic for BESM would get rid of the problem. Personally, though I admit it looks like an add-on, I like the added level of choice: it allows a player, instead of just rolling the dice, to make a choice on the roll itself (a similar kind of choice as given by a D&D character with the "Power Attack" Feat). On the other hand, it has been stressed out that even that good point had its bad side, as it makes the player more conscious of the mechanics during play, thus favoring the "roll" aspect to the detriment of the "role" aspect.

I think I gave the wrong impression here. Though you CAN make up your own descriptors, the book includes many, many built into the system, described in nature and game use. Notes are included throughout to help clarify their use as well.

Good. That's all a beginner really needs, and it also make it easier for an experienced player to design his own descriptors.

And I won't claim that the Ricochet mechanics are unbreakable. In fact, it's very easy to abuse the rules if you're so inclined. I'm afraid if you want a system to babysit your munchkin players, OVA won't be for you. There are many good rulesystems that concentrate on good balance (D20 being among them).

d20 tried, but hardly succeeded, if you consider all the threads about the best and worst classes (Cleric being the usual winner, Bard the usual loser) and races (Dwarf being the usual winner, Half-Elf the usual loser). Also, there are all those Feat combos, that remind me of Magic the Gathering. The fact that many supplements focus on new Feats and Prestige Classes also increase the MtG feel. It makes for easy sales, but certainly doesn't help with balance issues.

Ricochet is meant to allow ultimate freedom

That would be no rules at all. I've done that already, but only with players I knew well.

in a hard to recreate genre. But this also means it's perfectly possible to buy only the "good" Abilities and clobber everyone else in the game.

I felt this was neccessary to recreate the dynamics of true to anime gameplay. It's made more obvious when you see licensed anime RPGs. The main cast is never built on the same number of points.

Yeah, but see, that's an aspect that I don't think translates well into a game. I agree that all those anime, even those that glorify team play and friendship, always focus on ONE character, that gets all the best parts and finishes all the big bosses (or equivalent challenges). Saint Seiya is a particularly annoying example. Or, more to the point: who wants to play Kuririn in DBZ when his friend gets to play Goku? (Me, but only because C18 is the only cute chick in the show.)

That's actually something I like in BESM: variable costs for Skills, so that Skills that are most valuable for the campaign are also the most expensive. It makes for more variety, as a player would otherwise shy from investing points in "origami" instead of "unnarmed attack" in a martial arts game.

Of course, I have included a few optional rules to help curb rampant abuse, but the fact remains that it is breakable.

I refuse to play a game that is breakable. Except all RPGs.

I checked it out as well, (thank you for the link, Mofarme!) and wasn't notably impressed. But it's hard to judge a system based on a slew of statistics. But yes, templates is an odd choice for a generic system. Templates are great for specific genres, but tend to be confusing and limiting for something so broad as anime. (Much why I was completely disgusted by BESM d20, even though a friend did all the new art).

BESM d20 was a clever marketing move, and GoO was right to make it. This said, I don't like the idea and don't even agree with how D&D classes have been deconstructed. For instance, a Wizard and a Sorcerer "pay" more points because there are more arcane spells than divine spells; only, it doesn't take into account the fact that a Cleric always has access to his whole spell list, while the Wizard has to find the spells and pay for them (at least to scribe them) and the Sorcerer will never know but a few.

As for Niko, I didn't like his latest covers for GoO, but I did like what I saw of his work for BESM d20. Overall. Or, to be more precise:

Niko Geyer art I really reeeally like:
http://www.nikogeyer.com/gallery/keys.jpg
http://www.nikogeyer.com/gallery/aqua.jpg

Niko Geyer art I really like:
http://www.nikogeyer.com/gallery/besm_d ... rcerer.jpg
http://www.nikogeyer.com/gallery/besm_techgenius.jpg

Niko Geyer art I like:
http://www.nikogeyer.com/gallery/besm_student.jpg
http://www.nikogeyer.com/gallery/besm_hotrod.jpg

Niko Geyer art I don't care for:
http://www.nikogeyer.com/gallery/besm_mechapilot.jpg
http://www.nikogeyer.com/gallery/uresiad20.jpg

... and a character sheet sample? Those always make for great teasers.

Though in the case of Random Anime, for me, it was more of a letdown, since that's how I learnt about the 8 basic attributes.

I would, but unfortunately, I feel it would give a bad impression of the game. Because there's no hardcoded stats, no derived statistics, or other extras of the sort, it looks AWFULLY barren.

Yeah, I figured that, but I thought about a filled-up character sheet. A sample of an actual character.

But it works exceptionally well in playtests, I just hope you can take my word on it till you can get a copy of the rules.

In 20004?

[Clay]

I won't forgive you! If only because there's no need. The same Roll Over Mechanic thread I mentioned also tackles the "Trick Shot" issue. Many find, like you, that it is clumsy; some insist that a change to a roll-over mechanic for BESM would get rid of the problem. Personally, though I admit it looks like an add-on, I like the added level of choice: it allows a player, instead of just rolling the dice, to make a choice on the roll itself (a similar kind of choice as given by a D&D character with the "Power Attack" Feat). On the other hand, it has been stressed out that even that good point had its bad side, as it makes the player more conscious of the mechanics during play, thus favoring the "roll" aspect to the detriment of the "role" aspect.

Perhaps it shows my lack of knowledge of the Tristat rules (as I haven't touched it very much since the original Second Edition came out, and I didn't actually buy it then.), but I was referring not to the rule being cumbersome (seems fine to me), but to the fact that the modifiers on each side are identical.

To simplify what I'm thinking, if Person A's attack is worth the arbitrary value 4, and Person B's defense value is also worth 4. What difference does trick shot make? Subtract (or add...the backwards modifiers is another thing that irks me about BESM) 2 to both sides, and they're still equal. 4 = 4, 2 = 2, 6 = 6.

That would be no rules at all. I've done that already, but only with players I knew well.

A lot of OVA was made using characters from a freeform game as well. That's part of how I came to the current system: the ability to recreate the often disparate power levels.

As for focusing on one character...that's not neccessarily true.

Although most kid's anime like DBZ and Pokemon tend to have one hero above all others, there are others that are not so much.

It's inarguable the protagonist of say, Tenchi Muyo is the title character. But isn't it funny he's probably one of the LEAST ABLE characters in the cast? (In some series he turns all super warrior, but that's beside the point.) Ryoko, Ayeka, and everyone else are not only more powerful, but often steal the show.

And in the end, if people being different power levels REALLY bother you, OVA does include rules for more traditional character generation.

That's actually something I like in BESM: variable costs for Skills, so that Skills that are most valuable for the campaign are also the most expensive. It makes for more variety, as a player would otherwise shy from investing points in "origami" instead of "unnarmed attack" in a martial arts game.

This is something I always disagreed with. Although in a fantasy game driven by combat, combat skills are obviously #1, this is not ALWAYS the case. Martial Arts will do you very little good at all in game where political intrigue, deception, and other charisma and personality skills play a much more important role. Thusly, all abilities are on the same scale.

BESM d20 was a clever marketing move, and GoO was right to make it. This said, I don't like the idea and don't even agree with how D&D classes have been deconstructed.

Oh, I never denied it wasn't a profitable move. I just found it a distasteful one. (Slayers d20 was slightly more reasonable....Trigun d20 was not.)

And Niko's cool, yeah ^^ He's doing work for OVA as well.

Yeah, I figured that, but I thought about a filled-up character sheet. A sample of an actual character.

That's certainly doable. I planned to have a few sample pages when the product was released anyway.

In 20004?

You'll never let me live that down, will you? *laughs* I didn't even know anyone knew of the site. ;p

[Tenka]

To simplify what I'm thinking, if Person A's attack is worth the arbitrary value 4, and Person B's defense value is also worth 4. What difference does trick shot make? Subtract (or add...the backwards modifiers is another thing that irks me about BESM) 2 to both sides, and they're still equal. 4 = 4, 2 = 2, 6 = 6.

Ah, I see. The thing is, attack and defense are not opposed rolls. Your attack can be successful (if you roll under your attack value) and your opponent's defense can be successful (if he rolls under his defense value). So if your attack value is high, your attacks will often succeed, but if your opponent's defense value is high, his defenses will also succeed often, which can make for pretty long fights.

A "Trick Shot" is a way for you to take a penalty on your attack roll that will become a penalty on your opponent's defense role. So your attack is less likely to succeed, but if it does, it's your opponent's defense that has become less likely to succeed.

Am I being clear or delightfully confusing?

It's inarguable the protagonist of say, Tenchi Muyo is the title character. But isn't it funny he's probably one of the LEAST ABLE characters in the cast?

Like Keitaro Urashima in Love Hina or Keiichi Morisato in Aa Megami-sama! (Oh My Goddess!). Like Tenchi Muyo, though, those are harem-type anime: one rather bland kid (easy for the average Japanese kid to identify with) for a flock of girls, all beautiful and more interesting than him, but all of them interested in him nonetheless.

This is something I always disagreed with. Although in a fantasy game driven by combat, combat skills are obviously #1, this is not ALWAYS the case. Martial Arts will do you very little good at all in game where political intrigue, deception, and other charisma and personality skills play a much more important role. Thusly, all abilities are on the same scale.

You seem to contradict yourself, here, when you talk about "a fantasy game driven by combat" and a "game where political intrigue, deception, and other charisma and personality skills play a much more important role" as if they were the same. They're not. In the former game, where combat drives the action, combat skills are expensive; in the latter game, social skills are the more expensive ones. All the same, combat skills are pretty cheap in a teen romance game, while "cooking" or "acting" become more expensive.

And Niko's cool, yeah ^^ He's doing work for OVA as well.

I know. I was rather surprised.

Yeah, I figured that, but I thought about a filled-up character sheet. A sample of an actual character.

That's certainly doable. I planned to have a few sample pages when the product was released anyway.

Cool.

In 20004?

You'll never let me live that down, will you? *laughs* I didn't even know anyone knew of the site. ;p

Okay, okay, I'll stop talking about it... in about 18 millenia, give or take one month.

I must have seen your website mentioned on RPG.net -- lucky you!

[Clay]

Ah, I see. The thing is, attack and defense are not opposed rolls.
Am I being clear or delightfully confusing?

No, I understand now. I remember this is yet another thing I disliked about BESM...the fact that the degree in which you succeed attacking has no bearing on how hard it is for the opponent to defend.

But it does make Trick Shot a little more sensible! Thanks for clearing it up.

Like Keitaro Urashima in Love Hina or Keiichi Morisato in Aa Megami-sama! (Oh My Goddess!). Like Tenchi Muyo, though, those are harem-type anime: one rather bland kid (easy for the average Japanese kid to identify with) for a flock of girls, all beautiful and more interesting than him, but all of them interested in him nonetheless.

After I posted this, Niko commented as much to me. But similar examples can be made of other anime. In the Lodoss OVA, Parn is very much the protagonist, but in general a weaker, more inexperienced character than anyone else in the cast. Well, until the final battle, where he goes all two-sword hero on Vagnard, but I attribute that to some super luck or something along the lines of OVA's Drama Dice (in which you can spend Endurance to gain more dice in dramatic situations).

The point is moot anyway. If balance worries you, there are rules that exist to help.

Something I neglected to mention was the Combat Effectiveness rule (which is standard, rather than optional), which prevents any starting character from having a cumulative Bonus of more than +5 in Attack rolls OR Defense rolls. Should help some.

You seem to contradict yourself, here, when you talk about "a fantasy game driven by combat" and a "game where political intrigue, deception, and other charisma and personality skills play a much more important role" as if they were the same. They're not. In the former game, where combat drives the action, combat skills are expensive; in the latter game, social skills are the more expensive ones. All the same, combat skills are pretty cheap in a teen romance game, while "cooking" or "acting" become more expensive.

Though this is true, if I know anything about anime, it's its ability to change drastically. Characters who once relied on their combat ability are forced into situations where they can't use it, or need to use something else. Obviously the point values the characters are based on don't change. Characters built on "weak" abilities suddenly shine. Also, when certain abilities cost more, it tends to discourage well-developed characters. When every point is valuable, and, say, Martial Arts costs so much, how can you bother "wasting" points on "Hobby: Origami" ? (admittedly, specific skills, called Hobbies, are worth 1/2 under the OVA rules.)

I know. I was rather surprised.

That's something I really wanted to do with OVA. I wanted all the art to be good. RPGs have a bad reputation of accepting all sorts of godawful artwork. OVA won't be one of them.

Anyhoo, once I get the character art for Raine, I'll perhaps post a PDF of his sheets online. He's a well-rounded character typical to most combat oriented games.

[Tenka]

After I posted this, Niko commented as much to me. But similar examples can be made of other anime. In the Lodoss OVA, Parn is very much the protagonist, but in general a weaker, more inexperienced character than anyone else in the cast. Well, until the final battle, where he goes all two-sword hero on Vagnard,

Parn is inexperienced but not weak. He loses his sparring match against King Fahn, yes, but this one acts more like a mentor, akin to Genkai for Yusuke (Yu Yu Hakusho) or Kame-sama for young Goku (Dragonball). And as you admit, Parn's still the one taking the big boss down. Why? Because the scenarist had thus decided. But in a game, it simply cannot work: unless the GM thinks himself a writer and his player mere pawns, there's no reason for the player with the most powerful character not to be the one to beat the big boss.

but I attribute that to some super luck or something along the lines of OVA's Drama Dice (in which you can spend Endurance to gain more dice in dramatic situations).

Very consistent luck, considering the number of anime in which the weaker character is the one who finally beats the big bad guy. Those "weaker characters" are in fact stronger. Or have become stronger, which in game terms would mean getting more XP than their friends. Hard to make it work.

In the case of OVA, it may be that the player has invested a lot of XPs in whatever it takes (like, Endurance) to increase his character's total number of Drama Dice, but that'd still be something that makes the character more powerful.

The point is moot anyway. If balance worries you, there are rules that exist to help.

Balance worries me more for beginners than for myself. I can see myself having a campaign with both Frodo and Gandalf as PCs, but that'd be hard for most GMs and players to pull out. (Gandalf as a munchkin: "To Frodo? Are you kidding me? I keep the darn Ring for myself!)

Something I neglected to mention was the Combat Effectiveness rule (which is standard, rather than optional), which prevents any starting character from having a cumulative Bonus of more than +5 in Attack rolls OR Defense rolls. Should help some.

Sounds like it. We've about reached a point when I'd need to have read the rules not to make meaningful comments. We'll have to wait.

Though this is true, if I know anything about anime, it's its ability to change drastically. Characters who once relied on their combat ability are forced into situations where they can't use it, or need to use something else. Obviously the point values the characters are based on don't change. Characters built on "weak" abilities suddenly shine.

How often does that happen, in an anime? Most seem to focus so much on one aspect (be it fighting, diplomacy, cooking or go) that everything else is very secondary. Though it's another case were anime gaming can differ notably from real anime, since the GM is hopefully more flexible than a scenarist (who has a very definite target audience) and his players more likely to come up with unexpected ideas than an imaginary character can.

Also, when certain abilities cost more, it tends to discourage well-developed characters. When every point is valuable, and, say, Martial Arts costs so much, how can you bother "wasting" points on "Hobby: Origami" ? (admittedly, specific skills, called Hobbies, are worth 1/2 under the OVA rules.)

I completely disagree here. Let's say that getting one level in Combat costs 10 XP and one level in Origami costs 10 XP. For the same cost, I can become a slightly better combattant or slightly better at making origami. A no brainer in a combat-oriented game.

Now let's say that getting one level in Combat costs 10 XP and one level in Origami costs 1 XP. It means that for the same 10 XP, I can either be a slightly better combattant or the Ultimate Master at making origami. Anoter possibility: I could have 1 level in combat or 1 level in ten minor skills, like origami-making, cooking, etc. So it's less tempting to invest every single point in combat.

(admittedly, specific skills, called Hobbies, are worth 1/2 under the OVA rules.)

I could counter by stressing out how much more important "Hobby: Go" is than "Fighting" in Hikaru no Go, but that would be cheating: if a game was ever made to emulate Hikago, there wouldn't be just one skill to play go. Or very simply, a go board would be used.

Anyhoo, once I get the character art for Raine, I'll perhaps post a PDF of his sheets online. He's a well-rounded character typical to most combat oriented games.

We'll wait for Raine to come and save the day, then.

[Clay]

I've found this discussion has kind of dissolved from a debate on the rules to indicating our own differences in opinion, which really can't be changed much from additional forum postings. It just came down to a "I disagree" fest, where each of us listed our points, neither being truly wrong (as, all in all, they're opinions.) If you'd like to continue discussion via private message, then that will be perfectly fine. ^^

But sinced I'm a stubborn fool, I'll go ahead and mention I disagree with your notion of combat vs. origami. You imply there's going to be some choice between "another level of combat" versus some levels in origami. Often I've found games are so limiting that making a character even half-way usable squeezes out the possibility of more character defining aspects. (Champion's DEX attribute anyone?) The fact of the matter is, once combat becomes more expensive, it often becomes prohibitive to even be ADEPT at it. Especially if we use such drastic numbers a ten here.

But in the end, it doesn't matter. There are a thousand RPGs that overly concern themselves with maintaining this illusionary balance. OVA just isn't one of them. At least, not until a later supplement perhaps. But being that OVA is a simple game at heart, it's easy enough to say "Hey, I want skills X Y and Z to cost more." All GMs tinker the rules a little, don't they?

But as a last musing, is it really fair to charge more for abilities based on their usefulness anyway? After all, it's arguable that being good at combat is easier than, say, becoming a rocket scientist. Even if it weren't (as in, you were speaking of devoting your life to martial arts) They're very equatable. It's that way with a lot of things. It takes years of practice and devotion to become a master of any craft, whether its beating up people, or creating beautiful paper art. It doesn't seem right to me to bump up the cost of an ability just because it's more useful. It seems to make more sense to me to indicate the time and energy used to gain the ability. (After all, you buy them with EXPERIENCE, right?)

As for Raine, I may have to drop Miho instead. Procuring Raine's artwork is becoming a readily delayed business it seems. Everyone loves Miho right? Yay! Look for it in the coming days.

[Tenka]

I've found this discussion has kind of dissolved from a debate on the rules to indicating our own differences in opinion, which really can't be changed much from additional forum postings. It just came down to a "I disagree" fest, where each of us listed our points, neither being truly wrong (as, all in all, they're opinions.) If you'd like to continue discussion via private message, then that will be perfectly fine. ^^

Nah, I agree we've about reached the end, but it's not been so bad yet as an "I'm right because I like it that way" fest. Up to now, we've both been, not really pushing our opinions, but motivating and developing them.

But sinced I'm a stubborn fool, I'll go ahead and mention I disagree with your notion of combat vs. origami. You imply there's going to be some choice between "another level of combat" versus some levels in origami. Often I've found games are so limiting that making a character even half-way usable squeezes out the possibility of more character defining aspects. (Champion's DEX attribute anyone?) The fact of the matter is, once combat becomes more expensive, it often becomes prohibitive to even be ADEPT at it. Especially if we use such drastic numbers a ten here.

We agree on the causes, not on the effects, but we understand each other so there is nothing I can add here.

But in the end, it doesn't matter. There are a thousand RPGs that overly concern themselves with maintaining this illusionary balance. OVA just isn't one of them. At least, not until a later supplement perhaps. But being that OVA is a simple game at heart, it's easy enough to say "Hey, I want skills X Y and Z to cost more." All GMs tinker the rules a little, don't they?

Yeah, though the less tinkering, the better I like it. But that's one house rule, at least, that would not slow down play: it'd be taken care of before the game starts or between sessions; it wouldn't surprise players in the very middle of a roll, leading to some annoying rule discussions in the middle of a supposedly dramatic battle.

But as a last musing, is it really fair to charge more for abilities based on their usefulness anyway? After all, it's arguable that being good at combat is easier than, say, becoming a rocket scientist. Even if it weren't (as in, you were speaking of devoting your life to martial arts) They're very equatable. It's that way with a lot of things. It takes years of practice and devotion to become a master of any craft, whether its beating up people, or creating beautiful paper art. It doesn't seem right to me to bump up the cost of an ability just because it's more useful. It seems to make more sense to me to indicate the time and energy used to gain the ability. (After all, you buy them with EXPERIENCE, right?)

That's two different logics here. One is "game balance" (which is the line we previously followed) and the other is "statistics" or "real world logic" (which is the one you invoke now).

True, according to "statistics," it makes no sense that it should be easier to be a Nobel prize in physics than a street thug, which is what the rules would seem to imply as the "Nobel in physics" NPC is built on less points than the "street thug" NPC. Why isn't there more genius physicians and less street thugs, then? Because... it doesn't matter very much on how many points an NPC is built, as the GM is not limited. Only PCs are thus limited, and for them, "statistics" don't matter much because they're not a representative sample of the game world: they're PCs, everyone else is an NPC. And the rules revolve around the PCs.

So basically, what I mean is that I think more important to balance PCs between each other (the GM having no problem to adjust NPCs, since he is not limited by the number of points he can build them with) than to have the rules reflect the logic of our real world.

As for Raine, I may have to drop Miho instead. Procuring Raine's artwork is becoming a readily delayed business it seems. Everyone loves Miho right? Yay! Look for it in the coming days.

There was an android girl in my dream last night. It's a bit vague but I remember she was trying to hide her identity as such but ended in a kind of street accident. I could recover her head, though, from which she could be rebuilt. I think I rebuilt her myself according to her own mental instructions (she was still conscious, just without a body), but I'm not sure, it may have been her creator instead. But she did have some kind of telepathic power, that at least I'm sure about: that's how she let me know of what she was and that she was in danger, and it was more of an immediate understanding than hearing a mental explanation.

[Tenka]

On the GoO's boards, michaeltaylor produced another interesting argument against making skill costs vary according to their utility in different campaigns. I thought I would echo it here:

And ultimately I think this makes more sense. If you are in a Teen Romance game, why should Gun skill be cheaper, just because it doesn't show up more? This means you SHOULD take it and use guns! Totally contrary to the genre - because when you do, you'll be better than expected because it's cheaper! WTF?

[...]

I've never seen this in real life. The roleplayers take whatever fleshes out their character *regardless* of what it costs. The munckins are the only ones who benefit from a cost break. They will take the skill just because it's cheaper, damn the role-playing. Which is why I think they should consider all genres equal.

I can see that happening, and it's true it could ruin the mood if a player always tried to use his l33t skillz even when they're not appropriate. Funny I had never thought of that possible drawback. While a good GM, or good players, won't let that happen... we're just back to the "a good GM/player" deus ex machina, too often used to cover flaws in rules. Not that rules can be perfect, but I'm now unsure about the best solution: varying skill costs or not? Both having their good and bad points, as far as encouraging good roleplaying is concerned, I'll agree that the best answer is "not" for a core rulebook, as it makes things simpler. Varying costs could be offered in genre books, eventually, as an option.

[Clay]

That dream is fascinating *laughs* It actually reminds me of a strange merger of Miho's plot with Ai's...an amnesiatic ESPer. ^^

As for the post you gleaned from that forum, I must admit I also find it an intriguing argument. I never thought about it that way, or at least, not consciously.

But I'm glad we've found solid footing on the matter. And actually, you're right. Future supplements may make use of variable Ability costs.

We'll just have to see. ^_^