Regarding Natsuki

[Daphnaie]

Hi Clay, I hope you don't mind if I had a query about Natsuki going into the new edition.

This mainly stems from an experience I had with my group years ago when I first tried out OVA, using the sample characters for a first session to get the rules sorted before we made characters. It was brought to mind when I was rereading the original rules, so I thought I'd get it off my chest.

The concern I (GMing at the time) had regarding Natsuki (which my group shared) was that she pretty unsuitable to actually being played. It seemed more like she would be far more appropriate as a NPC, given her access to resources and standing at a power level far above any other sample character (she runs a sizeable corporation, has minions and is so rich she can buy nearly anything).

Also, being that she is a man-hater, she can't exactly be used in a party with male PCs. As per the rules:

Hatred - You have a completely irrational hate of something. This thing may cause you to become angry or even invoke violence.
At Level 2, you can hardly keep your distaste in check. You will want to harm or dispose of the object in question, or if a person, be extremely harsh or even violent towards them.

Someone suggested just toning down her hatred of men, but I remember that the female players still didn't have any interest in playing her (since a core part of her character is still that she's a straw misandrist, which didn't really appeal to them). I think someone remarked they found her a bit distasteful (a female player that is, I don't think the guys at the table were bothered by it per se).

So I thought I'd just get that off my chest and ask if Natsuki has changed at all in the revised rules (either in being a NPC now, or no longer being a man-hater)?

Also, I hope I haven't caused any offence, since I don't want to ascribe any malicious intent on your part, but I just wanted to share my thoughts and experience.

Thanks,
Daphnaie

[Joe_Mello]

Note: Just my opinion, but...

After re-reading, it's pretty obvious that Natsuki is supposed to be an antagonistic character, cut from the Akiko Natsume mold (among others). That being said, she's not unplayable. What you really need is a good hook to justify her presence in the party. If a high-ranking executive like Natsuki is getting her hands dirty, then there's obviously some overriding motivation that's keeping her misandry in check (or maybe her misandry is why she's made it personal). Another thing you might find useful is a player who doesn't mind screwing with the party. Natsuki is going to be headstrong regardless of party makeup. You'll want a player who can be acerbic and possibly willing to sabotage the group (or at least the male members) to improve her character's standing.

So it's doable. Hell, I'd be willing to play her if this situation came up.

[Daphnaie]

After re-reading, it's pretty obvious that Natsuki is supposed to be an antagonistic character, cut from the Akiko Natsume mold (among others).

Yeah, that was the impression I got from her as well, which is why I found it unusual she was presented as a Sample Character rather than being in the Sample NPC section.

That being said, she's not unplayable. What you really need is a good hook to justify her presence in the party. If a high-ranking executive like Natsuki is getting her hands dirty, then there's obviously some overriding motivation that's keeping her misandry in check (or maybe her misandry is why she's made it personal). Another thing you might find useful is a player who doesn't mind screwing with the party. Natsuki is going to be headstrong regardless of party makeup. You'll want a player who can be acerbic and possibly willing to sabotage the group (or at least the male members) to improve her character's standing.

So it's doable. Hell, I'd be willing to play her if this situation came up.

Mm, I don't mean to say that she's unplayable per se. Rather that, as you said, you really have to work to get her into the party and really shape the story in order to fit her character. With the others it might not be immediately obvious, but they can fit together without too much trouble. With the other characters entering, you really only have to think about that character (and probably whether you want to incorporate their special foe). But if Natsuki enters, you have to be extra accommodating and then also factor into the story that she has access to (material, financial and probably social) resources that far outreach any of the other PCs.

Or alternatively, as you said, having a antagonistic PC. Though in most games, even with well intentioned players, that can very easily go rather pear shaped.

So it's not that I necessarily object to the character's existence (were a GM or PC to make her on their own under circumstances that were appropriate to their specific game), so much as how appropriate she is as to be included as she is as a Example Player Character, rather than someone else.

[Joe_Mello]

In regards to appropriateness, not everyone wants to play the hero.

Natsuki's resources are an easy counter: they just don't work as intended. Throwing money at a problem could leave a paper trail (and future plot hooks). Knowing a guy (figure of speech) may give the group access to that top-secret facility but it could also be a tip-off to the baddies. Or maybe everything works the way they're supposed to and then some because Natsuki is actually working the long con on her teammates (especially if there are PC's a degree or two from Miho). Heck you could even crib a page from Eden of the East and intentionally leave even Natsuki's player in the dark, too.

This took me 5 minutes to conjure; can't begin to imagine what a well-prepared GM would think of.

[Chris Brady]

The problem with Natsuki is that she's an NPC villain in PC clothing.

Here's a few things that they're (the Japanese) are still keeping as part of the formula for most shows.

The main leads tend to be average height to short. Because of the David vs. Goliath formula that the Japanese like, they tend to have the males shorter than the villain. Also, female characters that are meant to be sympathetic are also going to be shorter than the male characters.

Natsuki is over 5' 6" (where most of the characters in the game are slightly shorter or are about the same), she hates men and runs a mega-conglomerate. She's an anime villain.

[Clay]

While Natsuki definitely fills quite a few of the villain roles you mention (including her height, incidentally), what you forget is another longstanding anime trope: Rivals and villains often become your allies. There are few moments in the Dragon Ball series where Vegeta behaves as anything but the same bad-dude role he entered the show with. Yet, there he is, fighting alongside Goku and wooing series mainstay Bulma.

That's not to say including Natsuki as a PC is for everyone, or that you can't use her as the villain in your game. But the "rich person that can afford everything" seemed an important role to offer (as Joe Mello said, as an analog for Akiko Natsume (Nuku Nuku), Nabiki Tendo (Ranma 1/2), and Shutaru Mendou (Uresei Yatsura). And let's face it, these characters are always hard to deal with for the other main characters of a given show. The main thing is Natsuki isn't actually evil. Selfish and misguided, perhaps, but not in the same category as most of the actual NPCs, the sort that experiment on human beings with their money (Zurkrieg) or kill with reckless abandon to get what they want (Shadowman). Moreover, characters can change. Just because Natsuki starts a campaign as a manhating villainess, doesn't mean she can't mellow over time.

Furthermore, while I made the Sample Characters "play nicely" together as much as I could, it was also important to convey every KIND of character you can play. So while bottomless pockets and a grating personality isn't the most party-friendly of a start, there are people and groups who like to play these kinds of characters, and I felt it was important to show how, instead of hiding it in a GM-only section.

All that said, you'll find Natsuki upgraded in a few ways to make her more approachable as a PC, among those actual combat Abilities that allows her to go toe-to-toe with the heroes...or alongside them.

[Joe_Mello]

I was going to mention I could easily envision another PC pulling Natsuki aside and cut a promo on her, but I was dazzled by a strange epiphany based on Daph's one description of her. Full of herself and well-connected? It's Castle!

[Chris Brady]

While Natsuki definitely fills quite a few of the villain roles you mention (including her height, incidentally), what you forget is another longstanding anime trope: Rivals and villains often become your allies. There are few moments in the Dragon Ball series where Vegeta behaves as anything but the same bad-dude role he entered the show with. Yet, there he is, fighting alongside Goku and wooing series mainstay Bulma.

That's not to say including Natsuki as a PC is for everyone, or that you can't use her as the villain in your game. But the "rich person that can afford everything" seemed an important role to offer (as Joe Mello said, as an analog for Akiko Natsume (Nuku Nuku), Nabiki Tendo (Ranma 1/2), and Shutaru Mendou (Uresei Yatsura). And let's face it, these characters are always hard to deal with for the other main characters of a given show. The main thing is Natsuki isn't actually evil. Selfish and misguided, perhaps, but not in the same category as most of the actual NPCs, the sort that experiment on human beings with their money (Zurkrieg) or kill with reckless abandon to get what they want (Shadowman). Moreover, characters can change. Just because Natsuki starts a campaign as a manhating villainess, doesn't mean she can't mellow over time.

Furthermore, while I made the Sample Characters "play nicely" together as much as I could, it was also important to convey every KIND of character you can play. So while bottomless pockets and a grating personality isn't the most party-friendly of a start, there are people and groups who like to play these kinds of characters, and I felt it was important to show how, instead of hiding it in a GM-only section.

All that said, you'll find Natsuki upgraded in a few ways to make her more approachable as a PC, among those actual combat Abilities that allows her to go toe-to-toe with the heroes...or alongside them.

Most anime villains are not evil. Selfish and misguided usually. The fact of the matter is that she's a man hater, and as presented in the first edition, and irredeemable one. This is nigh impossible for most anime fans to identify with her.

It's a similar problem I have to 1e Daisuke. There's nothing about him that redeemable. He won't ever change, because A) it's 'funny' for him not to. B) nothing in his character says that he has any sort of soft spot. He's an overly entitled playboy with the money and means to ignore the consequences of his actions. All he cares about is getting cured, nothing else anyone says will ever change that. As written.

He doesn't even have Natsuki's garden to make him potentially sympathetic. And in Natsuki's case, that doesn't help much either.

[Clay]

Well, you win some, you lose some I guess! You can't please everyone—or actually, you can, since there's absolutely nothing stopping you from modifying either character in any way you wish. Don't like the man-hating bit? Replace it with something else. Think Daisuke needs a garden? By all means. These characters are bits of inspiration and example. Change them as you wish! The book even says so in the Sample Characters chapter.

That said, I think each character is only irredeemable if you don't want them to be. Natsuki could easily find her hatred mellow if a truly honest, good-natured man proved her long-held convictions misguided. (Braun anyone?) And if anything, it seems likely to me that the only way Daisuke will EVER cure his curse is by learning his lesson and becoming a better person, as taught to us by pretty much every transformation/curse movie ever made. I think room for character growth is ideal, and while Natsuki and Daisuke may have more obvious faults to overcome, there are Players who love that about them. And those who don't. That's okay! There are 10 others that are hopefully more your cup of tea (including two new to this edition.)

[Chris Brady]

I think the big issue is that a lot of us take what we see, and we don't 'see' an out for these characters. Not asking for one, but I think that's the issue with Natsuki.

[Joe_Mello]

I think the big issue is that a lot of us take what we see, and we don't 'see' an out for these characters. Not asking for one, but I think that's the issue with Natsuki.

I find that unfortunate, especially with a open setting like OVA. I actually thought the backstory had enough to make Natsuki much more humanized than her stat sheet would lead you to believe, but that's merely my opinion and I tend to present sheets bio-side up for a reason.

[Chris Brady]

I think the big issue is that a lot of us take what we see, and we don't 'see' an out for these characters. Not asking for one, but I think that's the issue with Natsuki.

I find that unfortunate, especially with a open setting like OVA. I actually thought the backstory had enough to make Natsuki much more humanized than her stat sheet would lead you to believe, but that's merely my opinion and I tend to present sheets bio-side up for a reason.

That's what I gathered from her bio. Her stats are meaningless when it comes to a character for me.

She is, however, a pretty good villain, as either the main one, or a foil to another.

[Joe_Mello]

I hope you've perfected your oujo cackle :3