Wise Turtle Publishing

I have had my PDF copy of OVA for a couple of weeks now, and while I have not had the chance to play it yet, I do feel like I can comment on how to make improvements to the layout, and how to imprive it for OVA Revised.

1. I would reduce the number of sample PCs and NPCs, to just one sample NPC that can serve as an example to show people what a fully statted out character looks like.

2. Art, use it, but overall reduce it a little. I mean, I LIKE the art, but I feel that it is just taking up space in the book. Pick the best of the best for the art in the book, but do not have whole pages of just artwork.

3. Include a sample character sheet. Prefferably one that can be photocopied easily. And also offer one on your website. I know that you can easily just write down your stats on a sheet of paper, but some people I know like an "Official" character sheet.

EDIT: Also, will the book be up for Print on Demand in some format? Will you go with hardcover or softcover if that is the case? Also, what will the dimensions of the book be? Will it be a smaller book, or a bigger one? What I mean is, will it be the size of say, the Dungeons and Dragons books in terms of size? Or will it be smaller? I actually think a small book that I could fit into my pocket would be pretty cool, but I now that is probably not the best format.

Oh, and of all of these suggestions, I would say that, for me, cutting down the number of sample PCs and NPCs to be the most important. Of course, I will buy the product anyways, but I am just making some suggestions.

I hope Clay will not ban me for this.

Galeros wrote:1. I would reduce the number of sample PCs and NPCs, to just one sample NPC that can serve as an example to show people what a fully statted out character looks like.

Honest question: Do you play D&D?

Joe_Mello wrote:

Galeros wrote:1. I would reduce the number of sample PCs and NPCs, to just one sample NPC that can serve as an example to show people what a fully statted out character looks like.

Honest question: Do you play D&D?

Yes.

3.5 and hopefully Pathfinder eventually to be exact.

Galeros wrote:1. I would reduce the number of sample PCs and NPCs, to just one sample NPC that can serve as an example to show people what a fully statted out character looks like.

Oh dear god, please no. The sample characters, aside from being fantastic examples of how to use the abilities, are also an endless source of entertainment and inspiration. This game's character creation system is not just about stats, it is also about characterization. I, personally, absolutely love the sample characters.

Galeros wrote:2. Art, use it, but overall reduce it a little. I mean, I LIKE the art, but I feel that it is just taking up space in the book. Pick the best of the best for the art in the book, but do not have whole pages of just artwork.

The only problem I have with the art is that it made the book hard to print. For that purpose, I'd like a version without (or maybe even line-only, as the sample characters are), but I think the large amount of artwork in the OVA book really adds to its manga/anime feel... after all, those are both mediums that use a great deal of... well... art. You know what I'd love to see is some snippets of comics, like the ones in Jade Claw. :3 That would be awesome.

Galeros wrote:3. Include a sample character sheet. Prefferably one that can be photocopied easily. And also offer one on your website. I know that you can easily just write down your stats on a sheet of paper, but some people I know like an "Official" character sheet.

Please yes. The character sheets I made for my group on Microsoft Word probably aren't nearly as good as something official would be. I still do like the fact that you can just whip out a sheet of paper, though!

Galeros wrote:EDIT: Also, will the book be up for Print on Demand in some format? Will you go with hardcover or softcover if that is the case? Also, what will the dimensions of the book be? Will it be a smaller book, or a bigger one? What I mean is, will it be the size of say, the Dungeons and Dragons books in terms of size? Or will it be smaller? I actually think a small book that I could fit into my pocket would be pretty cool, but I now that is probably not the best format.

It seemed like Clay was leaning toward pocket-sized (or, rather, the size of Japanese manga), which is cool. I'd love to see a larger size, since I'd likely buy it at least partially for the art, but small might be interesting too. I'd love to make a comment about a small version being easier to keep in my bag, but let's face it, if a bag isn't big enough for a sketchbook, a notebook, a roleplaying game or two, and possibly my laptop, it's not likely I'd be carrying it around in the first place.... XD

Galeros wrote:

Joe_Mello wrote:

Galeros wrote:1. I would reduce the number of sample PCs and NPCs, to just one sample NPC that can serve as an example to show people what a fully statted out character looks like.

Honest question: Do you play D&D?

Yes.

Then I think you'd understand that a bevy of statted PC's and NPC's are more of a need than a want, especially since this is a sandbox game. Not everyone is going to have a campaign ported from such-and-such anime or video game (Vocaloid high school tokusatsu for the win), so having an established stable of characters out-of-the-box is great for people who want just a pickup game or GM's with writer's block.

Also note that the sample characters are all in the same canon(s), which is not only cool, but leads itself to easy trope adaptation

Joe_Mello wrote:Then I think you'd understand that a bevy of statted PC's and NPC's are more of a need than a want, especially since this is a sandbox game. Not everyone is going to have a campaign ported from such-and-such anime or video game (Vocaloid high school tokusatsu for the win), so having an established stable of characters out-of-the-box is great for people who want just a pickup game or GM's with writer's block.

Also note that the sample characters are all in the same canon(s), which is not only cool, but leads itself to easy trope adaptation

I can understand your point. I admit, I do already have an idea of what kind of game I would run, and so I have no need of the sample PCs and NPCs. It is up to Clay in the end, I was just making my opinion known.

StarRaven wrote:Oh dear god, please no. The sample characters, aside from being fantastic examples of how to use the abilities, are also an endless source of entertainment and inspiration. This game's character creation system is not just about stats, it is also about characterization. I, personally, absolutely love the sample characters.

I addressed this issue in my above post.

The only problem I have with the art is that it made the book hard to print. For that purpose, I'd like a version without (or maybe even line-only, as the sample characters are), but I think the large amount of artwork in the OVA book really adds to its manga/anime feel... after all, those are both mediums that use a great deal of... well... art. You know what I'd love to see is some snippets of comics, like the ones in Jade Claw. :3 That would be awesome.

Well, if Clay can eventually get a hardcopy for sale, then printing it on your own will not be a problem. I hear something about DriveThruRPG(And thus RPGNow as well, because they are both run by the same people I am pretty sure) doing a Print on Demand service, but I do not even know if they are actually going to do it, and if so, when they are going to start.

Please yes. The character sheets I made for my group on Microsoft Word probably aren't nearly as good as something official would be. I still do like the fact that you can just whip out a sheet of paper, though!

Hehe, yeah, my group tends to like "Official" character sheets.

It seemed like Clay was leaning toward pocket-sized (or, rather, the size of Japanese manga), which is cool. I'd love to see a larger size, since I'd likely buy it at least partially for the art, but small might be interesting too. I'd love to make a comment about a small version being easier to keep in my bag, but let's face it, if a bag isn't big enough for a sketchbook, a notebook, a roleplaying game or two, and possibly my laptop, it's not likely I'd be carrying it around in the first place.... XD

Hmmm, interesting. How big was the hardcopy of OVA that got sold via Print in Demand and through some stores?

Hmmm, interesting. How big was the hardcopy of OVA that got sold via Print in Demand and through some stores?

It is/was 6" x 9". However, Clay says here that he's thinking of going to A5 (5.8" x 8.3") with a dust jacket for the next edition.

Father of Dragons wrote:

Hmmm, interesting. How big was the hardcopy of OVA that got sold via Print in Demand and through some stores?

It is/was 6" x 9". However, Clay says here that he's thinking of going to A5 (5.8" x 8.3") with a dust jacket for the next edition.

Ah, thanks.

Galeros wrote:1. I would reduce the number of sample PCs and NPCs, to just one sample NPC that can serve as an example to show people what a fully statted out character looks like.

The large amount of sample characters has always been a point of division among fans. Some love them, some not so much...but I'm afraid the odds of you getting your wish are somewhere between Nil and Zero. In fact, if you check the blog, you'll find I've added a few. Oops.

I think my basic reasoning, besides the fact you'd have to tie me up somewhere and threaten my life to get me to remove them, is that you can always thumb past the sample character section. You can't exactly poof it there if it's removed. I've always felt it gave the book character, and as other fans can attest, it certainly goes a long way in showing what you can do with the game.

2. Art, use it, but overall reduce it a little. I mean, I LIKE the art, but I feel that it is just taking up space in the book. Pick the best of the best for the art in the book, but do not have whole pages of just artwork.

I'm afraid, again, you're out of luck. *laughs* Art has always been a major selling point for OVA, and outside of a few "OMG MY PRINTER DIED A HORRIBLE DEATH" complaints, I have never had anyone knock it. But different strokes for different folks.

3. Include a sample character sheet. Prefferably one that can be photocopied easily. And also offer one on your website. I know that you can easily just write down your stats on a sheet of paper, but some people I know like an "Official" character sheet.

Actually, there is an official character sheet towards the end of the book and one resized for letter-size paper on the website. But they are a tad underwhelming, and will have much better incarnations this time around.

EDIT: Also, will the book be up for Print on Demand in some format? Will you go with hardcover or softcover if that is the case? Also, what will the dimensions of the book be? Will it be a smaller book, or a bigger one? What I mean is, will it be the size of say, the Dungeons and Dragons books in terms of size? Or will it be smaller? I actually think a small book that I could fit into my pocket would be pretty cool, but I now that is probably not the best format.

OVA was in Print on Demand before...but the service was phased out by RPGnow some time back. They've been saying they're working on bringing it back for ages...but so far...

But OVA will have an honest print run, so such issues are not really noteworthy until it goes out of print, like the original.

As for size, others have answered. But to give you an idea, if you've seen a copy of Big Eyes Small Mouth, Burning Wheel, or Spirit of the Century, you've seen a digest size book the same size as the original OVA. The new OVA will be about as wide and an inch shorter.

Oh, and of all of these suggestions, I would say that, for me, cutting down the number of sample PCs and NPCs to be the most important. Of course, I will buy the product anyways, but I am just making some suggestions.

Of course, and they're much appreciated. But you can't please everyone, and a great many like it just the way it is. But I always want to hear from you. So never hesitate, even if you feel it may be at odds. I've been known to change my mind.

...but not about this. Really. Sorry. *laughs*

I hope Clay will not ban me for this.

Ha!. Hardly. I've seen fans be much more vocal than this. You're way in the good.

StarRaven wrote:Oh dear god, please no. The sample characters, aside from being fantastic examples of how to use the abilities, are also an endless source of entertainment and inspiration. This game's character creation system is not just about stats, it is also about characterization. I, personally, absolutely love the sample characters.

See? I'm not alone here! *laughs* I appreciate your summation, too, Joe.

The only problem I have with the art is that it made the book hard to print. For that purpose, I'd like a version without (or maybe even line-only, as the sample characters are), but I think the large amount of artwork in the OVA book really adds to its manga/anime feel... after all, those are both mediums that use a great deal of... well... art. You know what I'd love to see is some snippets of comics, like the ones in Jade Claw. :3 That would be awesome.

An artless version is something I've been pretty adamant about not doing in the past. A lot of OVA's charm is the art, after all. I also worry a pure text version may be easy to plop into a Word document and pirate to the ends of the earth and back. As it stands, it's at least a little annoying to do. But then again, when you can just pass the PDF around, maybe such worries are groundless. Between Star Raven and Galeros and countless quips in the past...maybe you guys have finally convinced me otherwise. We'll see.

As for the Ironclaw/Jadeclaw-esque comics...that was something intended for the original book, but was dropped for time constraints and lack of artists willing to do it. *laughs*

This time on the other hand...well...let's just say such a thing is already in the works.

It seemed like Clay was leaning toward pocket-sized (or, rather, the size of Japanese manga), which is cool. I'd love to see a larger size, since I'd likely buy it at least partially for the art, but small might be interesting too. I'd love to make a comment about a small version being easier to keep in my bag, but let's face it, if a bag isn't big enough for a sketchbook, a notebook, a roleplaying game or two, and possibly my laptop, it's not likely I'd be carrying it around in the first place.... XD

Well, if there was a sizable fan outcry for a bigger book...I might consider it. It's certainly a valid point for a book that's so focused on art that a larger size might display it better.

But as a gamer, I've found the smaller size so much friendlier on the game table, as well as easier to pass around to friends. What say you guys?

Perhaps I'll release a limited run coffee-table book with the art all big and pretty?

Clay wrote:Actually, there is an official character sheet towards the end of the book and one resized for letter-size paper on the website. But they are a tad underwhelming, and will have much better incarnations this time around.

*Goes and looks at his PDF copy*

Well, that is what I get for not paying attention.

Also, I agree that a smaller book is easier to use at the table. I like what I have seen of Pathfinder so far, but you could kill a small animal with the core book.

Clay wrote:I think my basic reasoning, besides the fact you'd have to tie me up somewhere and threaten my life to get me to remove them, is that you can always thumb past the sample character section. You can't exactly poof it there if it's removed. I've always felt it gave the book character

And I just grab my forehead in pain and disbelief.

Galeros wrote: 1. I would reduce the number of sample PCs and NPCs, to just one sample NPC that can serve as an example to show people what a fully statted out character looks like.

2. Art, use it, but overall reduce it a little. I mean, I LIKE the art, but I feel that it is just taking up space in the book. Pick the best of the best for the art in the book, but do not have whole pages of just artwork.

All valid suggestions - have to weigh the pro and cons and with sample characters the pros for keeping them seem to outweigh the cons. Plus one can just ignore them if they didn't like them, but someone who want lots of examples would be out of luck if they were gone. They do help seeing how the character creation system works. Maybe move them to the back of the book instead of listing them in the center so they are still available yet you don't have to scan past those pages to reach sections on either side?

Art contributes a lot - if it's good art. The original had decent art but inconsistent in quality (I recall Clay even mentioning that before). Maybe less pantie shots next time around? Miho's high kick pic and the full page sleeping girl come to mind which could be misunderstood if viewed by a passerby >.>. From the blog, the artwork examples are - fantastic.

Erinak wrote:Maybe move them to the back of the book instead of listing them in the center so they are still available yet you don't have to scan past those pages to reach sections on either side?

That sounds like a good idea to me.

Art contributes a lot - if it's good art. The original had decent art but inconsistent in quality (I recall Clay even mentioning that before). Maybe less pantie shots next time around? Miho's high kick pic and the full page sleeping girl come to mind which could be misunderstood if viewed by a passerby >.>. From the blog, the artwork examples are - fantastic.

Yeah, the panty shots would make it a little awkward to show off the book to other people.