Characters growing too fast with Experience?

[Jandar]

Hello,

After reading OVA several times over and running it at a con, I came away with the general impression that it's a very cool RPG. It's a very smoothly running engine. My convention players all liked OVA a lot. It was also met with approval by other roleplayers to whom I'd only explained the OVA rules system (Ricochet), and who had only a glancing familiarity, if any, with anime.

The one aspect that was slightly criticized, though I'd hardly call that criticizing, was the Experience system in the book.

One particularly committed and scrutinizing player felt that with the given Experience point system, and Abilities "maxing out" at +5 each, Player-Characters could beef up very fast. Maybe too fast. That doesn't come into play much when you are only running the occasional one-shot or presenting the game at cons, but it will matter once you are going into long-running series or campaigns. In short: Is the current Experience system meant for campaign play?

He said that Player-Characters usually need something to aspire to, more skills and areas to explore, and so on, and once they had +5 in all their favorite abilities (for example, in three or four abilities), where could they still put their earned experience? I mean, where would earned experience go next?

If I were a player I guess I would beef up Health and Endurance, and possibly Luck, and then try to purchase new Power Moves. Then again, a given level in Power Move covers an open-ended number of moves. Hmmm ...

Does anyone else think that the current Experience system makes characters rise up too fast?

Should some Abilities be more expensive, depending on the series setting and genre?

[Clay]

As you may have noticed in my Afterword, I don't exactly have much experience in the "Holding onto a character for a campaign" aspect of gaming. The Experience rules likely reflect this ignorance.

If I'm to be completely honest, I don't really BELIEVE in experience. Characters may grow and change through gameplay, but I found spending special points arbitrarily gained during each adventure against the spirit of role-playing. But I thought about it, and added them because most people would want them there.

That said, I've worried my experience system is a bit generous. But if you start with a character with, say a +3 in an Ability, it would cost 9 points to raise that to +5. (4 points for level 4, 5 points for level 5) If you only gave 1 point an adventure (which you're not obligated to give ANY), that means at least 9 adventures before an already skilled person can max to +5. I guess in my mind that would NEVER happen, so LOL.

Anyway, if you have a better suggestion, I'm open to it. It's a part of the rules that was not playtested, so I'd be happy to hear about people's experiences and work-arounds.

[JuddG]

If I'm to be completely honest, I don't really BELIEVE in experience.

You just won my "Game Designer of the Year" Award. For what THAT is worth...

I have always been skeptical of the need for Pavlovian assistance in getting players to play. A pal of mine is always tauting the XP system used in a game using 1d20 prominently, and he maintains that the whole "Start as a Schmuck and build your way up to being Superfly(tm) in several sessions" play experience is his favorite part of gaming. I admit, this player is kind of a doofus about said game.

The genre doesn't support such changes. Most amazing power-ups in anime are the results (usually instantly conferred) of some aid or the discovery of some hidden power you always had. Most anime characters are competant at what they do at the start and stay that way.

There are exceptions, but most of them involve finding and doing stuff to become more powerful, not just learning from experiences...

So, right with ya there, my brother.

[TheBouncyPherret]

...

He said that Player-Characters usually need something to aspire to, more skills and areas to explore, and so on, and once they had +5 in all their favorite abilities (for example, in three or four abilities), where could they still put their earned experience? I mean, where would earned experience go next?

If I were a player I guess I would beef up Health and Endurance, and possibly Luck, and then try to purchase new Power Moves. Then again, a given level in Power Move covers an open-ended number of moves. Hmmm ...

Well, for that aspect of the game, I think I might be able to help you a bit there. One day, when I was bored--ok, so it took the better part of a few weeks to get it finished ^_^;;--I made this.

It's just a little bit more "crunch" for Power Move and Magic--both Arcane and Witchcraft.

Not sure if it'll help or hinder, but I figured it was worth the shameless plug ^_^

TBP

[Siroh]

I have been struggling with this very idea of experience being somewhat inappropriate in an anime inspired game, much as it is in most super-hero comic inspired games. If the game takes place over a single season, or a single story arc (OVA/OAV) then rewards should come in other forms because it doesn't make sense that everyone gets stronger or faster or smarter in general in that amount of time. Often if someone is improving that much they are special to begin with (newtype) or they are being forced to keep up with a group of people who are already heads and shoulders above normal and they are simply equalizing.

Mekton used to have this rule where young characters started out inexperienced but got better really quickly and veteran pilots got a lot more oomph to them at character creation, but overall they improved really slowly (cause they were supposed to cede the top spot to the young guys or die heroically)

Rapid character advancement makes sense in some anime (Dragonball/Z) in others it seems antithetical (Heroic AGE being a great example so far)

Anybody have any guidelines they want to share for in genre character improvement? Maybe power-up guidelines?

[JuddG]

Anybody have any guidelines they want to share for in genre character improvement?

To add my two cents, I would say that a good idea may be to let players shift abilities at the end of the story arc in question to reflect the changes in themselves from the end of that story arc. Maybe make this change subject to some caps (such as how many abilities or how high/low you can go in modifying an ability).

For advancement junkies, just allow this altered character to have a higher balance factor by a point or two, depending on the length and "oomph" of a story arc. That way, you can buy-off some flaws (or take new ones), and then do some tinkering with your stats to not only reflect a developing character, but to focus on the things you have enjoyed about your character in actual play.

This idea is, in my mind, what the experience system is supposed to be about in any game - letting the character develop and grow. You seed new challenges and issues, you deal with old ones. Gone is that alcoholism, but now you have a burning, unrequited love for Princess Fumi. After an arc or two, that may become "Guardian (Princess Fumi)", as you confess you love and become her ardent suitor. Eventually, you may get "Position of Power (Prince)".

Getting better with a sword or Kung Fu is best simulated by buying suppressed power and "unlocking" it with training montages as the game progresses. Or the GM can just plan some training montages as rewards for a well-done quest or some-such and now you have an extra level of some "Power Move" or "Martial Arts" or take a +1 "Hobby (Burning Crane Style)" if the GM plays it that way.

That is all a bit disjointed, but I have been considering this stuff of late.

[Jandar]

Very good points there, JuddG.

You are right about those things, and I'll appreciate them all, especially the suitor-to-prince story development reflected in the character.

Thank you.

[Joe_Mello]

I'm probably not going to use XP myself, since my campaign storyline takes place over 4-5 months, and I would think experience would be more suited for games that "last longer".

When I was in the SWd20 group, the feats I took tried to be as appropriate as possible. For example, while the Jedi in the group were in training, I was able to sucker the GM into getting the Improved Martial Arts feat for my scoundrel because a) I already had the prereq's and b) those freaky magic dudes with the swords were being all kick-ass, so why couldn't I? :3

[Cloud]

Well, I respect your opinion on xp not being so great but i dont believe in not giving any at all. I am against immediate gains, such as one day a novice swordsman becoming knight-level just because he twarted an assassin's attempt. But characters starting awesome and not getting any better is not true IMO. If anything, I have seen more anime where characters start off embarassingly weak. Remember in Lodoss, the main character wasnt so good at using swords. By the end, he did get better. What about Bleach, Ichigo's abilities grow and grow through training? Naruto getting better and better at using his Jitsu? Heck, even DBZ when Goku and Gohan had to train their bodies to stay in super form. All of these examples to me spell out characters advancing their skills over time. I like the idea of giving characters xp, but maybe really little in this game. OVA's power creep is different since 5 is the highest level.

[jakk9000]

Just a thought use the point scale for the exp points (though I shift the exp needed to 2 exp for 1 rank, 4 for 2, 8 for 3, 15 for 4, and 20 for 5) and it seems to keep the players from becoming a overly focused in combat and focusing more on school work and extra curricular activities (High School Yu Yu Hakusho(tm) kinda setting).