Wise Turtle Publishing

I'm still pretty new to OVA, and I had a quick rules question about actions.

1) Based on the Taking Action chapter, I assumed that one always starts with the default two dice to roll before Abilities, Bonuses, Weaknesses, and/or Penalties are taken into account.

But while reading the descriptions of some Abilities, though most of them specifically say that you add the dice from the Ability in question, such as Cute which says "You may add your Cute! dice whenever you wish to abuse your cuteness...", some of them are worded to suggest you only roll dice equal to your rank in that Ability, without the usual default 2 dice. For example, Barrier says "Instead of making a normal Defense Roll in combat, you may roll your Barrier dice." or Dextrous which says "Roll your Dexterous dice any time you are trying to..."

So, do you always start with 2 dice to roll before other modifiers are added or subtracted, or in the case of some Abilities you only roll dice equal to your rank in that Ability (in which you might start off rolling only 1 die before any other bonuses or penalties were applied)?

Well I've always understood it as adding that many dice to the default 2d6 dice to determine the outcome.

Thanks. I figured that the two bonus dice always applied but I wanted to confirm just to make sure.

While I'm at it, there have been a few other questions that I've been wondering about the Revised Edition:

2) In the original edition, I recall it clearly stating that 1s were never added together, and that a result of all ones was thus a critical failure. However, in the Revised Edition, though it still mentions that rolling all ones is bad, I don't think it ever flat out states that 1s are never added the way that the first edition did. So just to make sure, in the Revised Edition, 1s still aren't added together, right?

3) I don't recall it ever being explicitly said in the book, but can characters take certain Abilities and Weaknesses twice to represent different things? I would assume so since several of the NPCs have more than one Knowledge Ability, but what about other ones like Companion, Heightened Sense/Impaired Sense, etc.?

4) Another thing I've been wondering about regarding dealing damage: "An opponent’s Armored Ability can reduce the DX of your attack. Should this reduce your DX below 1, treat it as ½ instead." So, that means in the event of being reduced to zero by the Armored Ability, the character's DX would instead be 0.5, and that would be multiplied by the margin of success of the attack and rounded up accordingly (so for example if the margin of success was just 1, that multiplied by 0.5 would be 0.5, which would get rounded up to 1 damage). Is this understanding correct?

Well since there's already a thread that answered your first one, I'll try to answer the other two.

3) Well from what I understood from the Perceptive Ability, it can be used for other sorts of non-human senses such as RADAR, LADAR, Infrared, and such. That, to me, suggests that one could have multiple instances of the same Ability with different wording for different dice checks. Though it should also be noted that said sense doesn't stack with others if only to indicate the switch between one Perceptive Ability or another. Same with Heightened Sense.

As for Abilities such as Companion, well, one can only assume that they're on constantly and thus having more than one Companion at a time wouldn't have that whole "can only use one similar Ability at a time" limitation. I can only assume that each different companion would have their own unique Abilities and Flaws of their own so they would no doubt require separate instances of Companion to denounce that aspect.

4) Yep, pretty much. Works the other way around too.

Thanks for that.

5) And, another thing that's been confusing me a bit is all the various ways of making weapons and equipment. Even though it's discussed in the book (such as the Focus vs. Other Abilities and Flaws blurb on page 71), and I've seen some threads on it here, I'm still not sure of what the narrative differences between each of the various choices are supposed to represent.

For example, if you wanted your character to have a plain old sword, would that be a matter of the Attack Ability with the Focus Weakness, the Attack Ability with the Requirement Flaw, the Attack Ability with the Weapon Flaw, the Gear Ability built with the Attack Ability, or some other method?

The same goes for wearing armor too: is that a matter of just taking the Armored Ability, taking the Armored Ability with the Focus Weakness or Requirement Flaw, taking the Gear Ability built with the Armored Ability, or something else?

Is one method supposed to represent equipment that is a signature, unique, intrinsic, and/or important part of the character while the other is meant to represent disposable unimportant, random stuff carried that could be swapped out or replaced if lost?

5) Well it really goes down to one simple aspect: Can it be stolen or not?

If it can't be stolen by another character for whatever reason, then it's largely a straight up Attack (Oh and note that the various instances of Attack with Perks and Flaws such as Armor Piercing and Ineffective, well, they're just iterations of the Attack Ability. It took me too long for me to figure that out).

If it can be but only affects one attack aspect like, say, a Katana, then that attack aspect should have the Weapon Flaw attached to it since it would only deprive said character for that particular version of the Attack Ability.

Which reminds me, I might have to take a relook at my Mobile Suit Armory profiles.....

If, however, the loss of said item meant the loss of not just one version of the Attack Ability but the Attack Ability itself, or worse, multiple Abilities of said character, then said Character should have the Focus Weakness to indicate that the character is extremely buggered if they loose the sword, armor or whatever.

However, the above assumes that said Sword or even Armor is a straight up Ability that a Character has. If the item in question is placed under the Gear Ability, then it's automatically assumed that it can be stolen and thus doesn't need any of those Weapon or Focus Defects/Weaknesses. On the plus side, it can be borrowed or even exchanged for something else. With GM approval of course.

Thanks, that does clear it up a bit. Now, just to make sure I understand it, when the book talks about making a "suite" of attacks for the Attack Ability, you basically just make up some kind of special move, be it the use of a weapon or a martial arts technique, give it a unique name with its own set of Perks and Flaws to define it, and you're done? If any of those specially defined moves have the Weapon Flaw, then if the weapon is dropped or taken away, the character can't use the special move but would still have the benefit of their basic Attack Ability, just without any influence from the Perks and Flaws of those Weapon special moves. Is that how it works?

Also, with this suite of special moves that one can assign to their Attack Ability, is there any limit to how many someone can come up with? Is it simply up to the player whether they give their character's Attack Ability just one special move (like the signature finishing move of many sentai and mecha shows) or a set of five or more special moves (if emulating a tournament fighting game)?

On an unrelated note, as a completely separate question:

6) How does one represent having multiple limbs in OVA, whether it be just a prehensile tail, an extra pair of arms, or multiple tentacles?

5) Yeah, you got it right. As for how many, I was not informed of such a limit, though I have a feeling that a "reasonable" amount is a good rule of thumb, i.e. something less than ten different Attack Aspects.

6) Well one, you can create your own Ability to reflect that, or just use the one I created for my Monster Girl Templates based off a similar Attribute from a different tabletop engine. Details are below:

Many-Handed – When people say they only have “two hands”, this doesn’t apply to you. In fact, you have a third or more appendages that’ll help carry that extra load or make multi-tasking that much easier for you. This could range from a prehensile tail to an extra arm or something as mundane, but still amazingly useful, as a dexterous leg. For each level in Many-Handed, you have that many extra appendage other than the two arms, or legs, many humanoid beings are born with. Additionally, the level of Many-Handed can be added to defense dice, any fine hand interactions, carrying awkwardly shaped objects, or any other dice check the GM deems acceptable.

Sniffycrab liked it enough, so there's something.

1) You always, always have a two-dice default for any action. If you come from the old edition, it was less consistent in this regard, so I can see why you might be thrown for a loop initially.

2) Discussed in another thread as mentioned. Ultimately, that call is up to you and the other players.

3) You can take Abilities more than once where it makes sense. Having multiple Gears or Transformations or Companions makes complete sense. Having multiple copies of Agile or Strong...not so much. For multiple Heightened Senses, it might be best to just redefine a new Unique Ability to cover all the bases. Having both sight AND hearing isn’t enough of an extra advantage to warrant paying for the Ability twice, in my opinion.

4) Yes, that’s correct. It’s basically less than one, but not quite zero (which wouldn’t be much fun, would it?) Still if you find someone drastically out-classed (say, Braun trying to punch a +4 Armored tank), you can just hand-wave it as completely ineffective.

5) Mostly, it’s less about the character’s fluff and more about how you want to spend points. Focus gives you back character points so you can add more Abilities. Using the Weapon Flaw gives you more endurance so you can have stronger attacks.

Gear on the other hand doesn’t really help you out with character points or Endurance. But it makes it very simple to pass the item around (or leave it at home if it would get in the way.)

Just use the method that seems easiest to you. They’re all fine and can all be used for both signature weapons and standard-issue equipment.

Your later example of the Weapon Flaw is correct, BTW.

6) You could also use some creative rewording of Time-Freeze (which can offset the multi-action penalty) to represent it.

Thanks Clay, I appreciate the answers and clarifications, that really helps.

1) On another note, a quick question about Barrier. In the little blurb after the Ability, it says in regards to Barriers with the Effective Perk: "In this case, Barrier is treated like an Attack Roll against zero, and Damage is calculated accordingly." When it says that Barrier is treated like an Attack roll, is it referring to the actual Barrier roll that was made as defense, or is it referring to the rank in Barrier? For example, if someone tried to attack a character with a +3 Effective Barrier and failed against their Barrier roll of 12, would the damage they received be based on the roll of 12, or the rank of 3?

2) And on an unrelated note, the reason for the questions about Heightened Sense and multiple limbs is because I'm trying to make animal-type beastmen and such in OVA. Would having thick, warm fur or wool be worthy of a Unique Ability, or would that be just a background thing in OVA that doesn't need a mechanical representation?

3) Also, what about night vision for feline-type characters and other such creatures. Would having night vision be a Unique Perk of Heightened Sense (Sight), or would it be its own Unique Ability? If it were a Unique Perk, how much of an Endurance cost do you think that would be worth? Or would having night vision not be worth having a Unique Ability or Perk for, and could just be assumed to be a part of already having Heightened Sense (Sight)?

4) Speaking of animals, I noticed in the sample NPCs in the book, neither the flying cat Companion of the magical girl, nor the pet monster dog Companion of the pet monster trainer, have any Weakness denoting being quadrupeds or and not having hands/thumbs for holding and manipulating things. For four-legged characters or Companions, is such a Weakness unnecessary in OVA?

5) With Time Freeze, it says "you gain an equivalent Bonus in all tests of speed and quickness or Penalty to those of your opponents." Is whether this Ability gives the user a bonus or an opponent a penalty a decision made at character creation that must always be kept to (such as always giving a personal bonus or an enemy penalty), or can the player choose each time they use this Ability whether they are getting a bonus or giving a penalty?

6) Does a character need to actually have the Attack Ability to be able to add Perks and Flaws to their normal attacks? I assumed that one did, as most of the NPCs who didn't have the Attack Ability did not have any Perks or Flaws on their standard attack forms. But then I noticed Dr. Tomori's normal attack had the Fatiguing Perk. Or, is it that Perks that don't have an Endurance cost (such as Fatiguing, Ranged, and Will Attack) are okay?

7) With the Spirit Medium Ability, is there any rule of thumb for just how weak or powerful a summoned spirit should be mechanically? Should said summoned spirits be built based on the summoner's level in the Spirit Medium Ability similar to the Companion Ability, or based on a static number like the Minion Ability?

8 ) Can an Ability like Gear be used to remove Weaknesses in addition to adding them or Abilities? For example, a lucky charm that not only grants the Lucky Ability, but also removes any levels a character might have in the Unlucky Weakness? How might that be done?

9) Complications from failed rolls, as well as another character's use of the Magic, Witchcraft Ability, may cause a character to gain a temporary Weakness. But can one ever gain a permanent Weakness in game? If so, does that entitle them to another Ability?

10) Since equipment (other than Gear or Vehicle) maybe be attached to another character's Weaknesses or Flaws (such as Focus, Weapon, Requirement etc.) how does one handle situations where a character disarms another character of their weapon and then tries to use it or keep it for themselves?

11) Do the "Limiting the Character" rules such as "Base Zero" only apply at character creation, or throughout the game in general? That is, when a character spends experience points to add a new Ability, must he still remain within +5/-5?

12) How would you represent "minor effects?" That is, random little things that a character might be able to do, but that don't seem major enough to be a full Ability, but yet are still minorly useful enough that they might help in some situations by at least avoiding a situational penalty or lowering the difficulty of an action? For example, if a character could glow or create enough light to read by? Or a character that wasn't immune to extreme environmental temperatures, but would be fine in less severe weather/temperature conditions such as someone who wasn't bothered by rain or chilly days? If you are familiar with BESM, this would be like things that fell into BESM Third Edition's "Features" Attribute, things that are very minor advantages but not major enough to really be considered an Attribute/Ability of their own.

13) Vehicles have their own Health and Endurance totals, but what about Gear? Nothing is mentioned about it, but can it be destroyed in the same way that Vehicles can?

14) Can Companion represent a swarm of insects or nanobots or other things that are made up of numerous smaller things that share a hive mind and functionally just act as one creature?

Sorry for rolling a critical success on my number of questions roll in the post above, Clay haha. I know you're busy but whenever you get a chance, at your leisure I'd really appreciate hearing your thoughts on the above questions!

The Reddest Mage wrote:Thanks Clay, I appreciate the answers and clarifications, that really helps.

1) On another note, a quick question about Barrier. In the little blurb after the Ability, it says in regards to Barriers with the Effective Perk: "In this case, Barrier is treated like an Attack Roll against zero, and Damage is calculated accordingly." When it says that Barrier is treated like an Attack roll, is it referring to the actual Barrier roll that was made as defense, or is it referring to the rank in Barrier? For example, if someone tried to attack a character with a +3 Effective Barrier and failed against their Barrier roll of 12, would the damage they received be based on the roll of 12, or the rank of 3?

It’s referring to your Barrier roll. Your DX is based solely on your Effective Perks. So if you take Effective twice, your Barrier “attack” has a DX of 2. As a general rule, no Ability will add to your roll AND to your DX. It’s one or the other.

2) And on an unrelated note, the reason for the questions about Heightened Sense and multiple limbs is because I'm trying to make animal-type beastmen and such in OVA. Would having thick, warm fur or wool be worthy of a Unique Ability, or would that be just a background thing in OVA that doesn't need a mechanical representation?

It depends on the focus of the game. If you’re living in an ice world where freezing to death is a real and constant worry, a fur coat could very well be a significant and stat-able Ability.

...generally though, I probably wouldn’t bother unless it was thick enough to provide an Armored bonus.

3) Also, what about night vision for feline-type characters and other such creatures. Would having night vision be a Unique Perk of Heightened Sense (Sight), or would it be its own Unique Ability? If it were a Unique Perk, how much of an Endurance cost do you think that would be worth? Or would having night vision not be worth having a Unique Ability or Perk for, and could just be assumed to be a part of already having Heightened Sense (Sight)?

I would probably just roll it in and let the rank in Heightened Sense double as canceling Penalties for low light. If you prefer, just rename the Ability “Night Vision” or “Cat Eyes” or whatever feels appropriate.

4) Speaking of animals, I noticed in the sample NPCs in the book, neither the flying cat Companion of the magical girl, nor the pet monster dog Companion of the pet monster trainer, have any Weakness denoting being quadrupeds or and not having hands/thumbs for holding and manipulating things. For four-legged characters or Companions, is such a Weakness unnecessary in OVA?

There’s two things to consider when building characters with OVA: 1) Characters are built based on what is average for that character and 2) When you buy a Weakness, it’s because you want it to matter.

That’s why you don’t need to stat up, say, Emotionless for a mecha. All mecha are emotionless, and there’s just no reason to state the point. Likewise, unless mecha being Emotionless is a core tenant of the story, it has no value.

In the case of animal companions, most animals don’t have thumbs and walk on all fours, so there’s no need to call out that point. (One could argue that animals DON’T TALK...but since most companion animals do, I gave Fenrir the benefit of the doubt with a few points of Mute, while Azyrus makes no special mention of his gift for gab.)

But if you want the lack of thumbs to be a constant story point and source of frustration for Azyrus, then by all means make it a Weakness.

5) With Time Freeze, it says "you gain an equivalent Bonus in all tests of speed and quickness or Penalty to those of your opponents." Is whether this Ability gives the user a bonus or an opponent a penalty a decision made at character creation that must always be kept to (such as always giving a personal bonus or an enemy penalty), or can the player choose each time they use this Ability whether they are getting a bonus or giving a penalty?

Can be chosen each time they use the Ability.

6) Does a character need to actually have the Attack Ability to be able to add Perks and Flaws to their normal attacks? I assumed that one did, as most of the NPCs who didn't have the Attack Ability did not have any Perks or Flaws on their standard attack forms. But then I noticed Dr. Tomori's normal attack had the Fatiguing Perk. Or, is it that Perks that don't have an Endurance cost (such as Fatiguing, Ranged, and Will Attack) are okay?

If you’re being super technical about it, if you don’t have Attack, you don’t have an Ability to apply Perks and Flaws to. ...but I think that’s a silly distinction. Just have the Perks and Flaws apply to an invisible Attack +0 Ability, much like I did with Dr. Tomori. There’s no limitation on which Perks and Flaws you can buy.

7) With the Spirit Medium Ability, is there any rule of thumb for just how weak or powerful a summoned spirit should be mechanically? Should said summoned spirits be built based on the summoner's level in the Spirit Medium Ability similar to the Companion Ability, or based on a static number like the Minion Ability?

I’d argue you could use it like Companion or Minions as desired.

8 ) Can an Ability like Gear be used to remove Weaknesses in addition to adding them or Abilities? For example, a lucky charm that not only grants the Lucky Ability, but also removes any levels a character might have in the Unlucky Weakness? How might that be done?

Gear stacks like most Abilities in OVA. Since Lucky and Unlucky are pretty obviously opposites (in the same way Quick and Slow, etc. are), just subtract the smaller from the larger and use the new Level, whatever it may be.

9) Complications from failed rolls, as well as another character's use of the Magic, Witchcraft Ability, may cause a character to gain a temporary Weakness. But can one ever gain a permanent Weakness in game? If so, does that entitle them to another Ability?

Yes, you can gain Weaknesses through the story (as described in Growth and Experience). No, you do not automatically get points for doing so. (But it’s perfectly fine for the story to develop in such a way that the GM also grants you Abilities at the same time you gain your Weakness. It’s just you don’t have versatile points to purchase with, is all.)

10) Since equipment (other than Gear or Vehicle) maybe be attached to another character's Weaknesses or Flaws (such as Focus, Weapon, Requirement etc.) how does one handle situations where a character disarms another character of their weapon and then tries to use it or keep it for themselves?

With Gear or Vehicle, it’s very easy since everything is packaged neatly for you to do just that. Focus and Weapon may be a little more problematic, but still easy to figure out with a little poking. Generally weapons are very personal and the issue isn’t as common as it may be in Dungeons and Dragons. (You’re not going to see random bad guys pick up the hero’s katana. They already got one of their own, after all!)

But when it is appropriate, just decide what Perks, Abilities, etc. belong to it and make as best a quick judgment as you can. It’s more important to move along with the fight than make the stolen weapon 100% accurate.

11) Do the "Limiting the Character" rules such as "Base Zero" only apply at character creation, or throughout the game in general? That is, when a character spends experience points to add a new Ability, must he still remain within +5/-5?

Only at character creation.

12) How would you represent "minor effects?" That is, random little things that a character might be able to do, but that don't seem major enough to be a full Ability, but yet are still minorly useful enough that they might help in some situations by at least avoiding a situational penalty or lowering the difficulty of an action? For example, if a character could glow or create enough light to read by? Or a character that wasn't immune to extreme environmental temperatures, but would be fine in less severe weather/temperature conditions such as someone who wasn't bothered by rain or chilly days? If you are familiar with BESM, this would be like things that fell into BESM Third Edition's "Features" Attribute, things that are very minor advantages but not major enough to really be considered an Attribute/Ability of their own.

You could just write it in with the character’s background, but if you really want it to appear on the character sheet, just make a Unique Ability +1 and lump all the character special features into it. +1 is not a hefty cost, but if you feel it is too much, apply the “Knowledge/Ineptitude is worth half” rule to it. You could even call it “Features” if you wanted to.

13) Vehicles have their own Health and Endurance totals, but what about Gear? Nothing is mentioned about it, but can it be destroyed in the same way that Vehicles can?

You can give them a Health total that seems appropriate. Weapon breaking tends to be a very intimate, story-driven thing, though, so it might not be appropriate for every game.

14) Can Companion represent a swarm of insects or nanobots or other things that are made up of numerous smaller things that share a hive mind and functionally just act as one creature?

Yep! You could give them a Unique Weakness where their Abilities get capped as their Health goes down. (For instance, at 25% Health, their Abilities are capped at +1, to represent opponents thinning out the swarm.)

Thanks a lot for all of that Clay, you're awesome and that really clears up a lot. I feel a lot more confident with this new system now.

Hello again Clay. A few more questions that came up:

1) The level of the Knowledge Ability and the Ineptitude Weakness are counted as half at character creation for the purposes of character creation limitations like the Base Zero rule, is that right? Well does that half price cost apply after character creation when purchasing or raising the Knowledge Ability with experience points, or buying off the Ineptitude Weakness with experience points?

2) Speaking of Knowledge and Ineptitude, how broad or specific should these be? For example, what if someone were making an anime maid type of character? Would they simply take something like Knowledge (Domestic Service) and leave it at that? Or would they take each of their particular maid skills as a separate Ability, such as Knowledge (Cooking), Knowledge (House Chores), Knowledge (Doing Laundry)? Or if a character was a chef, would they simply take Knowledge (Cooking) or Knowledge (French Cuisine)?

3) The Magic, Arcane Ability lets one copy the effects of other Abilities as magic spells. But what about effects that aren't covered by the existing Abilities, or effects that are more narrative than mechanical? For example, if a wizard wanted to make it rain? Or make the sky turn pink instead of blue? Would all such miscellaneous magical effects just be lumped into Unique Ability spells?

4) The Psychic Ability seems like it is mostly about reading minds and controlling them. But what about for telepathy? If someone wanted to use mind-to-mind communication, would that be lumped in as an alternative use of the Psychic Ability, or would that be a Unique Ability, perhaps taking inspiration from the Teleportation Ability's table of distances to represent how away far the communication can be made?

5) The Tough and Vigorous Abilities mention what kinds of rolls they affect in addition to adding more Health and Endurance. The Frail and Languid Weaknesses don't mention this though. But just to be sure, they do in fact impose penalties to rolls in which they would relevantly apply in addition to also subtracting less Health and Endurance, is that right?

6) Speaking of Tough, defense rolls don't have to be dodges, right? Rather than using Evasion to evade attacks in combat, could someone instead use their Tough Ability to go "Terminator" style and just take the hits and try to shrug them off as their defense roll? However, the Paralyzed Ability says you can't make any defense rolls because you can't move, so it does seem to assume that a Defense entails movement. Then again, I guess Tough might be a defense roll reflecting blocking or deflecting blows with ones arms or legs, which would require movement. Or would that be Agile? I guess Armor is for just standing around and taking hits without moving or getting hurt?

7) I'm really interested to hear your thoughts on Sentient Equipment, whether magical swords or computers with artificial intelligence, and how it could be represented when you get the chance: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12467

8 ) How would you make a fantasy/JRPG alchemist/chemist-type character, that is someone whose "magic" was making up potions and such that had various effects when imbibed by allies or thrown at enemies? Would that be a matter of taking Arcane Magic and/or Witchcraft Magic with perhaps the Ammunition X3 Flaw to reflect that once a potion is used it'll take time to brew up another one, and maybe Delayed to reflect that it may take a little time for the potion to take effect once imbibed? Would the Requirement Flaw be in there somewhere to reflect needing ingredients or something? Might one also take the Focus Weakness to reflect that the magic can only be done if the character has access to their potions and bombs? How might you reflect a character whose "magic" was their ability to make potions that "buffed" themselves and their allies when drunk, or could act as magical bombs when tossed at enemies? Or might it instead be made using the Inventor Ability? I have an idea of what Weaknesses and/or Flaws should be involved, but I'm not sure if you would pick one to represent the idea of if they'd all go together.

The Reddest Mage wrote:
2) Speaking of Knowledge and Ineptitude, how broad or specific should these be? For example, what if someone were making an anime maid type of character? Would they simply take something like Knowledge (Domestic Service) and leave it at that? Or would they take each of their particular maid skills as a separate Ability, such as Knowledge (Cooking), Knowledge (House Chores), Knowledge (Doing Laundry)? Or if a character was a chef, would they simply take Knowledge (Cooking) or Knowledge (French Cuisine)?

3) The Magic, Arcane Ability lets one copy the effects of other Abilities as magic spells. But what about effects that aren't covered by the existing Abilities, or effects that are more narrative than mechanical? For example, if a wizard wanted to make it rain? Or make the sky turn pink instead of blue? Would all such miscellaneous magical effects just be lumped into Unique Ability spells?

Just gonna throw in my two cents on these.
In regards to the Knowledge skill, using your Maid example, I'd say it depends. If your character is the only Maid among the PCs, I'd say Knowledge (Domestic Service) would suffice. In an all-Maid party however? Go ahead and split it up.

In regards to doing things with Magic other than duplicating skills, like making in rain or other more cosmetic changes, I'd say just add your Magic (Arcane) to your roll like most of the other skills, if the intended effect is significant enough to require a roll at all.