Wise Turtle Publishing

Between Acrobatics and Agility? From what I can tell, there is none, or at least an overlap.

Acrobatics - You are well practiced in a variety
of physical maneuvers. You can add
your Acrobatics bonus to gymnastic feats,
balancing, and attempts to tumble to avoid
falling damage. It may also be added to
Defense rolls in difficult or cluttered terrain.

Agile - You are naturally adept at moving
skillfully. You can add your Agile bonus to
melee attacks, gymnastics, dancing, sleight
of hand, or other activities that test your
coordination and manual dexterity.

Now, from a gameplay perspective, yes, having one attribute to boost attack and defence at once is pretty broken, and would make combat skill and defence useless. But still, making people pay twice for the same thing is a pretty stupid idea.

For that matter, What about Quick and super Speed? It would make sense if quick was a purely reflex thing, but

Quick - You are particularly fast and have
quick reflexes. You can add your Quick
bonus to dodge attempts, running, driving,
Initiative rolls, or anything else that challenges
your speed and reflexes.

and compare to

Super Speed - You can run. You can run
fast. You can run really, really fast. With the
Super Speed ability, you can exceed speeds
that are impossible for most. For each level
of Super Speed, add a +2 bonus to any
actions that require you to travel. While in
this state, others will have little time to react
to your presence. Only if they are prepared
for you can they try to stop or attack you, but
even then it requires an opposed Speed
check. (You include your Super Speed
bonus). As a downfall, you are unable to
perform any other actions while in Super
Speed state.

Once again, a single capability has been split into two attributes, and this time, I can't even see a mechanical reason.

Why are these attributes seperated? Am I missing something? Who agrees with me? If you don't, tell me why.

In the case of Super Speed, it has very different applications. You can, theoretically, add a +10 bonus to a speed roll with Super Speed. This is not possible with Quick, but it comes at the price of being able to fully act. Super Speed also does not apply to any task that doesn't involve travelling at great speed. Driving a car does not count, nor do initiative rolls. Though they both cover similar territory, the effects are very different. (in much the same way Hammerspace and Human Arsenal are similar, but different, Abilities).

As for Agile and Acrobatics, there is more a point for contention here. There is a lot of duplicity, but I personally felt there was enough difference to justify it. Acrobatics is more limited, but its ability to significantly add to defense in combat is noteworthy. Acrobatics however cannot be added to attack rolls. Also keep in mind Acrobatics and Agile can STACK with each other and with other Abilities. So you're not paying for the same Ability twice, regardless.

And surely, there's a lot of duplication in the Weaknesses sector. The idea was I wanted character sheets to be immediately sensical and understandable when read. As such, sometimes Acrobatics applies more specifically to a character than Agile, and vice versa.

A classically trained gymnast may be very good at what she does, but couldn't wield a weapon to save her life. By the same token, a skilled warrior may not necessarily be seen flipping around a cluttered battlefield.

If you really want a completely useless duplication, look no further than Animal Companion and Servant. They function practically identically. Unfortunately, this wasn't noticed until after the book was typeset. Removing one, or the other, would result in having to completely retypeset the book.

The whole point of the game is to build a (fun to play) character based on descriptions. If a player has a prolbem grasping this concept and tries to minmax, dont let em. Let bonuses for Acrobatics only work according to the rules. Super speed and quick are two different types of Abilities as Clay said (i was gonna try my hand at fielding this one when he posted!)

Clay wrote:In the case of Super Speed, it has very different applications. You can, theoretically, add a +10 bonus to a speed roll with Super Speed. This is not possible with Quick, but it comes at the price of being able to fully act. Super Speed also does not apply to any task that doesn't involve travelling at great speed. Driving a car does not count, nor do initiative rolls. Though they both cover similar territory, the effects are very different. (in much the same way Hammerspace and Human Arsenal are similar, but different, Abilities).

As I said, if the "moving fast" paart is sopposed to be Super Speed's, why not remove the movement stuff from Quick and rename it reflexes? Makes more sense, and seems less confusing.

A classically trained gymnast may be very good at what she does, but couldn't wield a weapon to save her life. By the same token, a skilled warrior may not necessarily be seen flipping around a cluttered battlefield.

That's why you could simply eliminate acrrobatics and replace it with Quickness. Acrobatics is focused enough to be a hobby. You didn't put a "throwing" ability in addition to Martial arts, why this?

If you really want a completely useless duplication, look no further than Animal Companion and Servant. They function practically identically. Unfortunately, this wasn't noticed until after the book was typeset. Removing one, or the other, would result in having to completely retypeset the book.

See, I don't have a problem with that. Why? Because you didn't devide the mechanical aspects into two different attributes. I can easily ignore it. The other stuff requires tinkering with the system.

Cloud wrote:The whole point of the game is to build a (fun to play) character based on descriptions.

Like "Time Freeze"? That name totally describes what the attribute does!

One's moving fast, one's moving SUPER fast. I think it's a distinction worth noting, and one I'm never going to budge upon. The "super sprint" (as the Ability was once called) is a facet of so many shows, and even anime, that I think its appearance is justified. *shrug* Super Speed represents a speed that is all-out and difficult to stop. This is different from a fast-moving ninja, who is fully capable of many different types of attacks and acrobatics while moving.

The distinction is also useful for nonhumans. Vehicles and robots may be capable of moving very very quickly (let's say, wheels, treads, etc.), but at the same time not have fast reflexes.

As for removing speed from Quick entirely, yes, it's plausable. But at the same time, it goes against one of OVA's core mantras. Don't make someone buy 5 different Abilities when one will do. Characters with fast reflexes, almost exclusively, also move fast. I defy anyone to provide a significant number of examples to the contrary.

Talk of uneccessary extra Abilities kind of segways to your argument about Acrobatics. It certainly has merit, as I've admitted. It could very easily be a hobby instead. But because of its possible relation to combat, I felt it was useful enough to warrant a full-fledged Ability. (In much the same way that Combat Skill and Pilot are Abilities, not hobbies.)

Maybe Acrobatics isn't useful, or generic, enough to count. That would be a valid argument to me. Something to consider for a new edition of the game, but not worth breaking the typesetting to remove.

Of course, everyone makes their own houserules. Feel free to remove Acrobatics if you like. I still think your reasoning about Super Speed is misguided though. They're not the same thing. Not close.

As for Time Freeze...makes perfect sense to me Time Freeze...the Ability to Freeze Time. Does it really warrant clarification?

I have to agree that Agile and Acrobatics are a bit redundant, not because they are precisely the same, but because I feel the situational defense advantage granted to acrobatics should also be extended to agile and that agile should only grant its attack advantage to unarmed attacks (if any attacks at all), and these changes would make acrobatics superfluous (since what isn’t covered by Agility can be easily reproduced with Hobby). I also feel that the two of them can be abused in a way that wasn’t likely intended. If a GM stipulates that a character cannot have a starting stat greater than 2, I can still use Acrobatics, Agile, and Hobby to make an Olympic class gymnast with an effective gymnastic ability of 6 . Still, it's not that bad. Every designer has to try to discern which design aspects will be appreciated by players and which need to be culled, and for the reasons he stated Clay felt it was worthwhile to leave Acrobatics in. While I may not wholly agree with that decision, I can accept and respect it (besides, as with any game, I can always modify it to suit my tastes).

I wholly disagree with the argument that Quickness and Super Speed should be combined. while it is true that Quickness' modifier to movement makes it similar to Super Speed, The Super Speed ability is more focused (and thus more powerful than Quickness where they overlap), and allows for far greater representative speeds than Quickness alone should be able to (plus it fits the feel of the Flash's 'Speed Force' fairly well). My only qualm with Super Speed is its limitation. Rather than only move I think you should be able to perform any act that does not require precision or patience. This would prevent you from making most attacks in hyperspeed, but would still allow you to do basic operations without hindrance (though I wander if any restriction is truly necessary, after all, if the character wants to be able to use the speed to construct ship models or read books at a phenomenal pace why not let it?).

I also disagree with the idea of stripping Quickness down to reflexes alone, not because its an absurd idea (actually it seems quite logical), but because it would render Quickness too limited in application, and wouldn't make it worth the purchaser's while unless it gave an unusually large initiative bonus.

Clay wrote: If you really want a completely useless duplication, look no further than Animal Companion and Servant. They function practically identically.

Closer than most think. Remember, people are animals too .

Clay wrote: Characters with fast reflexes, almost exclusively, also move fast. I defy anyone to provide a significant number of examples to the contrary.

You must remember that reflexes equate to how fast a thing can 'react' not necessarily move (motor recognition versus muscle speed), so to meet your challenge I offer the following list: worms, caterpillars, tarantulas, numerous species of coral, tube worms, fixed automated machinery, non-mobile sensors, computers, most (currently feasible) robots, numerous species of lizard, numerous species of multipedal insects, numerous species of fish, mollusks, amoebas, jellyfish, snakes, snails, slugs, elephants, anime slimes, certain concepts of golems, highly meditative monks who are not martially or physically trained, paraplegics who have trained their reflexes and coordination, individuals with hereditarily quick neuro-muscular responses but no noteworthy physical training, and other diverse creatures that can retract or reflexively tense musculature, or otherwise respond (showing high reflexes), much faster than they can actually move (including, lest we forget, numerous species of tortoise and turtle).

Sorry, but I just had to do it .

Inquisitor Melchior wrote:Verbose blurb on the pros and cons of Agile, Acrobatics, Quickness, and Superspeed

You basically hit all the points I was trying to make. ^_^ As for using Acrobatics for muchkin-ing, it's not really shouldn't possible as you suggest. If you really DID have two in Acrobatics. Having a hobby in say "gymnastics" is redundant enough that they should NOT be added. (In the same way Combat Skill and hobby: gun would not be, or Pilot and Hobby: drive cars). I'm pretty sure it's mentioned somewhere in the rules, at least concerning Combat Skill and a weapon hobby. If it's not...well...it won't be the first thing munchkins will latch onto. ^_^;

Interesting note about Super Speed! I don't see any reason why casual actions couldn't be taken. I really just wanted to avoid abuse from people trying to use Super Speed as an uber-defense in combat.

I'll make a note to consider revision if I update the PDF again.

Clay wrote:You must remember that reflexes equate to how fast a thing can 'react' not necessarily move (motor recognition versus muscle speed), so to meet your challenge I offer the following list: worms, caterpillars, tarantulas, numerous species of coral, tube worms, fixed automated machinery, non-mobile sensors, computers, most (currently feasible) robots, numerous species of lizard, numerous species of multipedal insects, numerous species of fish, mollusks, amoebas, jellyfish, snakes, snails, slugs, elephants, anime slimes, certain concepts of golems, highly meditative monks who are not martially or physically trained, paraplegics who have trained their reflexes and coordination, individuals with hereditarily quick neuro-muscular responses but no noteworthy physical training, and other diverse creatures that can retract or reflexively tense musculature, or otherwise respond (showing high reflexes), much faster than they can actually move (including, lest we forget, numerous species of tortoise and turtle).

Sorry, but I just had to do it .

Har, har! I think Wise Turtle would be quick to disagree. He claims to be a blackbelt, after all. (Not to be confused with other turtles with a likely similar degree)

That said, let me rephrase. Show me one heroic, primary character. ;P

Clay wrote:

Inquisitor Melchior wrote: Verbose blurb on the pros and cons of Agile, Acrobatics, Quickness, and Superspeed

Yes, I can get a tad bit pedantic. Sorry about that.

Clay wrote: As for using Acrobatics for muchkin-ing, it's not really shouldn't possible as you suggest. If you really DID have two in Acrobatics. Having a hobby in say "gymnastics" is redundant enough that they should NOT be added. (In the same way Combat Skill and hobby: gun would not be, or Pilot and Hobby: drive cars). I'm pretty sure it's mentioned somewhere in the rules, at least concerning Combat Skill and a weapon hobby. If it's not...well...it won't be the first thing munchkins will latch onto. ^_^;

I don't recall reading a stipulation about that, but I could easily be mistaken. Either way, it makes perfect sense not to include redundant modifiers. I'll make note of that for the future, thanks.

Clay wrote: I'll make a note to consider revision if I update the PDF again.

Don't worry about it too much. It's a simple enough house rule, and keeping Super Speed as it is will prevent a player from using any rules ambiguities to con their GM into allowing them to make a superspeed enhanced dodge or attack (the way I stated it leaves a lot to be desired as far as specifics are concerned). Besides trivial changes like this can always wait for the next edition.

Clay wrote: Har, har! I think Wise Turtle would be quick to disagree. He claims to be a blackbelt, after all. (Not to be confused with other turtles with a likely similar degree)

That said, let me rephrase. Show me one heroic, primary character. ;P

I know, I'm just being impudent . In truth you're correct, the number of recognizable anime characters, or even archtypes that players would want to play, that have fair reflexes but poor speed are practically non-existant. however, if you really wanted great reflexes but abysmal speed, I suppose one could just use the the same trick you suggested for parrying and apply Suppressed Power to the Quickness ability.