Wise Turtle Publishing

I'm a little confused about how Arcane Magic is supposed to work.

It says your spell "grants an ability" to the target. Surely the target doesn't then have to take an action to ACTIVATE the ability! But it doesn't explicitly state how that works.

For example, if I cast an invisibility spell, I expect the target to immediately fade -- in fact, I expect him to have no control over whether he does so or not.

Likewise, if I want to cast a fireball (a power move), I'd want it to go off instantly when I cast it. I don't really want to "bestow the ability" to shoot fireballs, and then have to wait until later to use the power!

Also, it's not entirely clear -- does the target have to pay the endurance cost of the mimicked ability as WELL as the caster paying the magic cost? The magic costs seem to be high enough to be all there is, but again, it isn't explicitly stated.

Keenath wrote:I'm a little confused about how Arcane Magic is supposed to work.

It says your spell "grants an ability" to the target. Surely the target doesn't then have to take an action to ACTIVATE the ability! But it doesn't explicitly state how that works.

For example, if I cast an invisibility spell, I expect the target to immediately fade -- in fact, I expect him to have no control over whether he does so or not.

If in a non-stressful time, it matters not who pays the Endurance cost, since there is none. Otherwise, the spell just allows the target to use the Invisibility Ability as if they had it, requiring them to spend Endurance as normal. If you want an invisibility spell that the target has no control over, than I would recommend bestowing Transformation with Invisibility and an appropriate Weakness that it is always on.

Try this:
Transformation +1
--Invisibility +5
--Special Flaw (Invisibility always on) -3

This way, your target is spending 2 Endurance each round to stay invisible. Or, you could pay the cost yourself, if it made more sense for you.

Keenath wrote:Likewise, if I want to cast a fireball (a power move), I'd want it to go off instantly when I cast it. I don't really want to "bestow the ability" to shoot fireballs, and then have to wait until later to use the power!

Well, than you would just have taken Power Move as an Ability, not as a spell. Take a look at Auren, in the sample chatacters section. He is an Arcane spellcaster with Power Move as an ability, not a spell.

Keenath wrote:Also, it's not entirely clear -- does the target have to pay the endurance cost of the mimicked ability as WELL as the caster paying the magic cost? The magic costs seem to be high enough to be all there is, but again, it isn't explicitly stated.

If the ability granted has an Endurance cost (ie Invisibilty or Incorporal Form), than the additional Endurance cost must be paid, as well. If, however, it's Barrier--like in the example-- the Endurance cost is only paid to activate it. If, however, you want to absorb the damage with the Barrier, and not use it just as a high defense roll, than you are required to pay any additional Endurance costs.

I hope I have been able to help with your questions. If your questions come with a specific example in mind, please let us know, so we can answer it in more detail.

TBP

TheBouncyPherret wrote:If your questions come with a specific example in mind, please let us know, so we can answer it in more detail.

Nah, I think you covered it.

I'm just mentally converting D&D spells (which I'm used to dealing with) to OVA and seeing how they'd operate. Like you say, some of them -- barrier, Magic Weapon (boosting an existing weapon attribute) would be easy, but a few don't make so much sense.

I guess primarily it's the ones that have some kind of innate End cost that are strange, to my mind. I mean, I'm already paying, say, 10 End per turn to maintain a spell -- and then the target has to burn End as well to take advantage of it. Seems very expensive, is all.

Keenath wrote:

TheBouncyPherret wrote:If your questions come with a specific example in mind, please let us know, so we can answer it in more detail.

Nah, I think you covered it.

I'm just mentally converting D&D spells (which I'm used to dealing with) to OVA and seeing how they'd operate. Like you say, some of them -- barrier, Magic Weapon (boosting an existing weapon attribute) would be easy, but a few don't make so much sense.

Glad I could be of service ^_^

Keenath wrote:I guess primarily it's the ones that have some kind of innate End cost that are strange, to my mind. I mean, I'm already paying, say, 10 End per turn to maintain a spell -- and then the target has to burn End as well to take advantage of it. Seems very expensive, is all.

Well, you could "cheat" and put the Ability in Transformation bundled with End Reserve...so the target doesn't have to actually spend their End to fuel the abilities.

Dunno if that flies in the face of the Ability or not.... *shrug*

TBP

It seems like cheating to put ANYTHING in Transform when you're using Arcane Magic. I mean, that's like saying "Half price for everything".

Bundling, say, invisibility with end. reserve and a linker weakness and maybe an always-on weakness, makes a lot of sense. I just am not sure I can go with Transformation as the bundling element.

Maybe I'll just house-rule that you can apply multiple related abilities and weaknesses at once, and just use the sum of their levels as the spell level.

For example, a Musclebound spell could be "Strong 3 plus Slow -1", and it's a second level spell.

Or, as we were discussing, Invisibility 3 plus Endurance Reserve 2 plus a special "Linked" weakness (-1; the ability can ONLY draw power from the Endurance Supply, not from internal endurance, and the End supply can only power that one ability) plus special weakness: Always On (-1) -- total, a 3rd level spell.

Note: Here, I pro-rated Always On. Ordinarily I'd make it a much bigger weakness for something like Invisibility, which greatly impacts your life, but in this case the invisibility only lasts as long as the spell lasts, so it's not such a big weakness.


Also, it mentions duration by saying everything lasts one round unless you spend end. to extend it -- but some abilities, like Barrier, last longer. Is that supposed to just be a GM call, in terms of what abilities last and how long, or what?

Keenath, I haven't forgotten about your post, buddy...just been busy, and haven't had the time to sit and properly reply to you. I'm on vacation, so I'm kinda in and out all the time, but I'll be making it back home Sat, and I'll get back to you no later than Sun, kk?

TBP

Although not truly an excuse, magic is simply an easy-to-use "catch-all" that makes magic possible with little fuss. If you're really going to build a campaign based on traditional sword and sorcery, you're likely better off scrapping the rules as stated in the book and try something on your own. OVA Fantasy will have its own magic system, several in fact.

My personal take on this is that, for the sake of simplicity, the magic-user can incur all costs in regards to endurance-draining abilities like Invisibility.

Also, the effect is instantaneous. By casting "Power Move" on yourself or anyone else, you can immediately use it. The advantage for having it as a separate Ability (as Auren does) is simply Endurance cost. This is not implicitly stated, and is perhaps something I should remedy.

Clay wrote: My personal take on this is that, for the sake of simplicity, the magic-user can incur all costs in regards to endurance-draining abilities like Invisibility.

So it's a good idea for Arcane mages to have End Reserve, huh?

Clay wrote:Also, the effect is instantaneous. By casting "Power Move" on yourself or anyone else, you can immediately use it. The advantage for having it as a separate Ability (as Auren does) is simply Endurance cost. This is not implicitly stated, and is perhaps something I should remedy.

Does using the Power Move right after casting a spell count as extra actions? If so, than the casting roll and attack roll will both be at -1.

Keenath wrote:It seems like cheating to put ANYTHING in Transform when you're using Arcane Magic. I mean, that's like saying "Half price for everything".

I agree, but that's how I rationalized lumping several things together--within the pre-existing rules.

Keenath wrote:Bundling, say, invisibility with end. reserve and a linker weakness and maybe an always-on weakness, makes a lot of sense. I just am not sure I can go with Transformation as the bundling element.

Maybe I'll just house-rule that you can apply multiple related abilities and weaknesses at once, and just use the sum of their levels as the spell level.

For example, a Musclebound spell could be "Strong 3 plus Slow -1", and it's a second level spell.

Again, I agree that your ways are wise (like some turtles around here ^_^). But I was trying to stay within the rules as-written. I'm sure that OVA Fantasy will have a better grasp on how magic works--Arcane, Withcraft, and any other new ones.

Keenath wrote:Or, as we were discussing, Invisibility 3 plus Endurance Reserve 2 plus a special "Linked" weakness (-1; the ability can ONLY draw power from the Endurance Supply, not from internal endurance, and the End supply can only power that one ability) plus special weakness: Always On (-1) -- total, a 3rd level spell.

Note: Here, I pro-rated Always On. Ordinarily I'd make it a much bigger weakness for something like Invisibility, which greatly impacts your life, but in this case the invisibility only lasts as long as the spell lasts, so it's not such a big weakness.

I definately see the validity of bundling them, as you put it. But, with Clays new insight into End cost and who "pays" it, we can ignore the End Reserve, and just stick to Invisibility +X and Always on -1. Pro-rating sounds good...and it also sounds like words that my accounting professors use...it makes me wonder what your profession is, Keenath ^_^.

Keenath wrote:Also, it mentions duration by saying everything lasts one round unless you spend end. to extend it -- but some abilities, like Barrier, last longer. Is that supposed to just be a GM call, in terms of what abilities last and how long, or what?

For that, the book is talking about the End cost for abilities that have their own End cost. Barrier and Invisibility are just two of such abilities. So if you cast Barrier on a friend and pay 5 End to activate it, they are protected by that Barrier at whatever was rolled for it. You still must pay the upkeep cost of the Barrier spell, but the 5 End cost to activate it is already paid for.

Wow, that was long-winded. Hope you followed me, and didn't get that "glazed-over eyes" syndrom most get when reading what I type (or listening to what I say...lol).

TBP

Clay wrote:Also, the effect is instantaneous. By casting "Power Move" on yourself or anyone else, you can immediately use it.

Ah, okay... so just to be clear, if I cast Power Move: Fireball on myself, I can immediately trigger the Fireball effect, without spending any extra actions -- correct?

TheBouncyPherret wrote:Does using the Power Move right after casting a spell count as extra actions? If so, than the casting roll and attack roll will both be at -1.

...or is TBP right?

TheBouncyPherret wrote:

Keenath wrote:Maybe I'll just house-rule that you can apply multiple related abilities and weaknesses at once, and just use the sum of their levels as the spell level.

Again, I agree that your ways are wise (like some turtles around here ^_^). But I was trying to stay within the rules as-written. I'm sure that OVA Fantasy will have a better grasp on how magic works--Arcane, Withcraft, and any other new ones.

Thank you! I understand the impulse to stick to the RAW, but, well... I've been doing D&D a while now, and I'm about up to here with "rules-as-written". Too many GMs say, "No, you can't do that" because it's not explicitly handled in the rules, or try to use some sort of awkward kludge just because its elements are RAW. OVA seems to be all about valuing originality over rules, so I have no problem with saying, "This is how I would handle it."

I definately see the validity of bundling them, as you put it. But, with Clays new insight into End cost and who "pays" it, we can ignore the End Reserve, and just stick to Invisibility +X and Always on -1.

You can if you don't mind paying an awful lot of End for the invisibility spell. I kind of like the idea of using the Endurance supply as an innate 'duration' component; the spell lasts until the 'battery' runs dry, and then expires.

Pro-rating sounds good...and it also sounds like words that my accounting professors use...it makes me wonder what your profession is, Keenath ^_^.

Um... I'm a software engineer (ie, programmer). I just happen to have a big vocabulary, I guess. I dunno how else I would say "I charged only a fraction of the normal rate to account for its reduced value" without actually saying that.

For that, the book is talking about the End cost for abilities that have their own End cost.

Ohhh, I see. It means if you grant an ability that has its own innate duration, that innate duration doesn't expire when you stop feeding the spell -- For Barrier, the user can keep it on after activation for as long as he wants, provided he doesn't move, so if you grant Barrier with a spell, it stays on until he chooses to move and drop the shield. By contrast, if you upkeep the spell, the target can freely activate and deactivate the barrier (paying the 5 End cost each time).

Got it.

(By the way, there should be a Weakness that makes abilites that normally don't cost Endurance, cost on a per-use basis. For example, Flight that costs Endurance each turn, or heightened sense that you have to strain to use.)

Keenath wrote:...or is TBP right?

It's not explicitly stated in the rules, unfortunately. I've always assumed no penalty. But making "fast" casts harder is not a terrible idea. I've never used magic much in games I've played. I'd like to hear what people who tried it out think. ^_^

Keenath wrote:Ohhh, I see. It means if you grant an ability that has its own innate duration, that innate duration doesn't expire when you stop feeding the spell -- For Barrier, the user can keep it on after activation for as long as he wants, provided he doesn't move, so if you grant Barrier with a spell, it stays on until he chooses to move and drop the shield. By contrast, if you upkeep the spell, the target can freely activate and deactivate the barrier (paying the 5 End cost each time).

Got it.

(By the way, there should be a Weakness that makes abilites that normally don't cost Endurance, cost on a per-use basis. For example, Flight that costs Endurance each turn, or heightened sense that you have to strain to use.)

I think it just depends on how you want the Ability to work. For one vision of a mage, this is plausible. For another, it's not.

But great idea for a Weakness! To this point, I've butchered Trigger to do it...the "special requirement" being Endurance use. I may just keep it that way, since I don't think I have enough room to cram a new Weakness in...but still, I like the idea!

Keenath wrote: By the way, there should be a Weakness that makes abilites that normally don't cost Endurance, cost on a per-use basis. For example, Flight that costs Endurance each turn, or heightened sense that you have to strain to use.

I had a thought about that a while back, but I wasn't quite sure how to go about it. Here is what I have:

Draining: A certain Ability requires Endurance to function. You must spend a number of Endurance each round for the Ability to work, based on the lvl of the Weakness: -1 is 5 Endurance; -2 10 Endurance; -3 is 15 Endurance (20?).

Or I was also thinking:
-1 5 End
-2 5 End/lvl of Ability
-3 10 End/lvl of Ability

Or
-1 5 End
-2 10 End
-3 10 End/lvl of Ability


I'm not sure...what do y'all think?

TBP

I was thinking along the same line, Pherret. My idea was the progression 5/10/20.