Changing the way Damage Abilities work.

[Father of Dragons]

I'd do it right away, no questions asked, but I'm afraid I'm opening up for more confusion through an oversimplification. That's really what I'm trying to get a feel for here.

Then perhaps the best idea is to write up some proposed rules and post them here, and let the crew look them over. It could help. Admittedly, the folks on the forum here are not the exact target for the simplification, but we're available.

[Jandar]

Hello Clay.

Yes, these are good thoughts towards simpflying the construction of abilities.

Frankly, I feel there is only a small minority of Abilities in OVA that invite misinterpretation and require additional pre-game math. These are: Power Move, Animal Companion, Servant, Flunkies, Arcane Magic, Weapon, Transformation, and Vehicle. In short, all the Abilities that kind of hand you other points to build things with, or cost Endurance to use, or can have Perks and Flaws, etc.

What I am not clear about yet is whether you want the new Power Move/Attack to function as a "suite" or "package" ... You buy it once at Level 3, then you can make any old attack related to it at Level 3. One of the big advantages of OVA!

Martial Arts, as used now, could also be renamed "Heightened Damage", "Hardened Fists" or "Unseen Weapons" etc. Maybe "Body of the Fighter" - You have trained your normal physical body to do as much damage as others do with weapons.

[Joe_Mello]

Okay then, what's your definition of a suite? Maybe it's because I play Exalted, but I can easily make a suite of moves without taking a single combat-related Ability. Obviously, more skills can create more complex moves, but the point is I can do plenty of cool stuff on my own; there just won't be a variance of ATK and DT scores.

Fwiw, if I were rolling Spike, I would probably give him Combat Skill +4, Martial Arts +2, a +2 pistol, and be done with it. I wouldn't give him Power Moves because he doesn't do anything cinematically over-the-top. He just pwns j00 in teh face.

[Clay]

Joe: Ah, but notice something you did...You gave Spike Martial Arts and Weapon at +2. This may have been an accident or a consideration of his character, but if we step into munchkin-mode for a moment, you'll realize that getting Weapon at a higher level than Martial Arts, or vise versa, will render one or the other unusable. Why would any character go the kung-fu route when their sword is much better? Or likewise, why bother with a weapon when you have more levels in Martial Arts? And even if you get them both the same...there is little or no benefit in, effectively, buying a damage Ability twice.

This is another reason for my concept. It doesn't punish characters for being diverse in their combat descriptions.

Anyway, since so many of you have asked what my definition of a "suite" is, let me throw together a quick delineation of what I intend the ability to do.

Attack (Techique, Power, etc.)

Increases the DT you do in an attack. You can leave it at this if you want. Your character can still kick butt with guns, fisticuffs, flinging tables, swords, and scorcery, but there is no need to complicate the rules more than that.

However, if you like things a little crunchier, you can define different attacks in your repertoire with perks and flaws. (Similar to the way characters can define a set list of spells for Magic, Arcane or, previously, define a suite of powers for Power Move).

A character could have an Attack representing his weapon (let's say a machine gun with rapid strikes, decreased damage, and requirement: gun), an Attack representing his barehanded prowess, an Attack for his ki-blast move that costs endurance, etc. etc. It's a theoretically endless suite of attacks defined by the base damage potential of the character.

So essentially, you can use the Ability as A) A catch-all ability that works the way Weapon and Martial Arts used to or B) A Power Move-like Ability except it now can include power moves that costs zero Endurance, weapons, and martial arts.

Make sense?

[Jandar]

Attack (Techique, Power, etc.)

Increases the DT you do in an attack. You can leave it at this if you want [...] A character could have an Attack representing his weapon (let's say a machine gun with rapid strikes, decreased damage, and requirement: gun), an Attack representing his barehanded prowess, an Attack for his ki-blast move that costs endurance, etc. etc. It's a theoretically endless suite of attacks defined by the base damage potential of the character.

So essentially, you can use the Ability as A) A catch-all ability that works the way Weapon and Martial Arts used to or B) A Power Move-like Ability except it now can include power moves that costs zero Endurance, weapons, and martial arts.

Make sense?

Ah, yes. Now I am getting a better understanding of what it might look like spelled out in the rules.

It's still not a big change to me. Attacks that work like Power Moves always used to work should cost Endurance (ki, vigor, psychic strength, mana), so it's good to have an add-on Flaw that will make the Attack drain points from Endurance.

[Clay]

Perks and Flaws would increase/decrease Endurance as they do for Power Moves now. They just start at zero, not ten.

[Jandar]

Perks and Flaws would increase/decrease Endurance as they do for Power Moves now. They just start at zero, not ten.

I had forgotten that bit from your previous posting.

Thanks again, I think this makes the new version easy enough.

Are you going to change Arcane Magic as well? That is one of my favorites, actually: You look at that one short chart and know exactly how much Endurance is devoted to working that spell. Really, one of my preferred magic systems.

[Joe_Mello]

Joe: Ah, but notice something you did...You gave Spike Martial Arts and Weapon at +2. This may have been an accident or a consideration of his character, but if we step into munchkin-mode for a moment, you'll realize that getting Weapon at a higher level than Martial Arts, or vise versa, will render one or the other unusable. Why would any character go the kung-fu route when their sword is much better?

Because there are other benefits than just damage. Last time I checked, Mr. Spiegel can't land a punch from 100 feet away nor one that can pierce a person's body from any distance. If someone wants to spam melee, I can easily set up gunners and force him to either pull out his pistol or try to dash and suffer the consequences. Am I pigeonholing? Heck, yeah, but it will be a learning experience.

Why must we make my left hand the same as a nuke?

[Clay]

Then why buy Martial Arts at all? The Weapon is obviously superior, by your example. There's always the small chance of losing the gun, but not worth "wasting" points on an inferior hand-to-hand ability, right?

But to answer your question, you don't have to make your fist the same as a bazooka. Simply give Attack a Focus of "Requires Bazooka" or some such. Or Create an Attack +2 ability, and have the Bazooka with a plethora of Increased Damage and some notorious flaws. (such things usually have slow and other major drawbacks after all). Or have Attack +4, then a -3 Suppressed Power (without bazooka). Etc.

But you're right, this is sort of the thing I'm afraid of. I'm really asking for examples of characters where this new Attack ability would make creation problematic. Any anime characters of note?

Also Jandar: Magic, Arcane should work the same as it has.

[Jandar]

To Clay: OK, no worries then about anything with Arcane Magic.

As for the discussion about the differences between normal hand-to-hand attacks and ranged weapons, I thought that all things created with the proposed "Attack" would start as point-blank attacks, and Ranged will be a Perk (as it has been so far) you have to take for it to use it outside of melee combat.

[Clay]

That's correct. I think Joe was mostly referring to the damage potential.

[Joe_Mello]

So in order to "purchase" a bazooka, I need to take a flaw of "requires bazooka"? That doesn't seem ridiculous to you?

If I remember correctly, the purpose of having a level of an ability/weakness/perk/flaw was to indicate that you had something unique. Any attacks with a bazooka inherently require the bazooka to use it. It doesn't need to be blatantly labeled. Otherwise, other RPG's would have done so.

Besides, any change you make to how Attacks are written, it doesn't affect the possibility of Munchkining. As long as the DT varies, the one with the bigger hit will be used the most. The End. The key is using either a) situation-appropriate goods or b) make goods vary in ATK rolls as well as DT which can be done by specializing Combat Skills.

If you want to condense, delete Martial Arts and call it a Weapon.

[Clay]

Well, it's only as ridiculous as purchasing Armor with the "Suit of Armor" Focus. Or Barrier with "Focus: Shield Generator." Or Arcane Magic with the Focus of "Magic Wand." Or Flight with "Pointy Witch's Hat."

Which is kind of my point. Weapon is the only Ability to have a "Weakness" built right in.

That said, I know what you're saying, and it's why I struggle with the concept. I've ragged BESM in the past for oversimplifying its three main stats, relegating character creation to a game of hunt and peck to "correct" all the things overly-vague stats build in. It becomes annoying to create Tough but Slow or Fast but Weak character types. But here I am recommending something similar.

However, I've thought about it for a few days, and I realized the problem. It's the whole "create different attacks on the fly" thing. While I see no problem with that, it becomes overbearing when combined with defining attacks Power Move style.

This way, you can create an Attack +3 with the specific attack "Bazooka" without automatically having a fist at +3, unless you specifically add your fist as another attack.

There's nothing to stop you from doing so, but you are not forced into programming in a bunch of caveats just so you can have a frail magic-user or a not terribly strong gunman.

But if you wanna simplify play for your players, you can leave specifics out and go for a general Attack +3.

It's just combining the two that was problematic.

Yay! Feeling much better about it.

[Jandar]

Hello Clay.

So, let me see whether I could follow you still.

For the above example, a Bazooka-type ranged attack at Level 3, all I'd have to buy is "Attack +3" with one restriction (Flaw), i.e. "Works only with a bazooka," and one Perk "Ranged." Is that it? Does it cost Endurance to use?

With only that attack on the character sheet, the character would only have his standard 2 dice to roll for attacks, and no bonus to damage with any other attack forms (DT 1).

To be good with the firing of bazookas, I'd have to give him Knowledge: Fire Bazooka at any level.

I assume I could easily have missed something.

[Clay]

You got it correct. No Endurance cost since you evened out the Perk with a Flaw. Only the one attack will get the +3 bonus until you delineate other attacks. You're also right about the attack roll, though it should be noted Combat Skill and Agile will also improve your ability to fire the bazooka. Combat skill is not cumulative with Hobby/Knowledge, however.