Changing the way Damage Abilities work.

[Beli]

Combat Skill or an appropriate Hobby: Specific Weapon would still be used to show your ability to use weapons (Along with agile and any other appropriate ability), but the 'Power' attribute would be the damage attribute. It's the only piece Clay didn't add into the new attribute. That's the main reason I thought Attack would be a bad descriptor for that particular ability, since it was less attack than damage.

Perhaps rename Combat Skill as Attack, and the mixture of damage abilities Power.

Or am I totally missing the point since I have not woken up yet this morning.

[Clay]

FoD, I checked the entry on Weapons, and boy, I see what you mean now. It's terribly ambiguous how it is written, and would be sure to change if I weren't planning on tossing it entirely. It should read that the higher your level in weapon, the power powerful the weapon.

Again, would be a moot point with this revision...

[Jandar]

At first, I looked at "Power" and could not resist grimacing. It conjured up images of "super powers" and the like, and that's not really appropriate.

But if I thought further, and tossed away my inner 14 year-old Spiderman reader, Power is actually very appropriate. It's like Strength...but not quite. It's more of a unique and personal strength, like Martial Arts or Saiya-jin power-levels.

At the same time, I have trouble using the word "power" to represent guns, swords, and boomerangs.

Not a bad start though, thanks!

Hello Clay,

Well, who would have thought it! In the very same week this month, on a playtester mailing list and here on this forum, respectively, two of my favorite RPGs are about to be heavily rewritten and altered. It would have been easier on me if it had been only one of the two.

Thanks again for directing me to this forum again, I may have missed a couple of important threads here.

For the new damage catch-all ability, "Power" could be the right choice. Of course, I'd have to carefully separate the word from how it is used in other RPG systems. At first I was also thinking "Power Attack," but that comes with the drawback that it sounds like a super-attack or special attack, and if it's meant to cover all attacks that a character has, this will be misleading. "Power Attack" is only legitimate if you also have regular attacks.

[Jandar]

FoD, I checked the entry on Weapons, and boy, I see what you mean now. It's terribly ambiguous how it is written, and would be sure to change if I weren't planning on tossing it entirely. It should read that the higher your level in weapon, the power powerful the weapon.

Again, would be a moot point with this revision...

Interestingly, this was an Ability that I instantly understood the first time I read OVA.

But I had to look up Martial Arts a few times to make sure it was only something that made your damage more devastating, but did not make you more skilled in fighting. (The latter I handled by using a Hobby: Martial Arts / Karate / etc.)

The one thing I always had to keep in mind, though, was that under the current rules, I cannot use Perks to boost the damage total from a Weapon, but I can boost it for a Power Move. Actually, Extra Damage would be completely meaningless if it did not apply to either.

"Power" or "Attack" would both fit the new ability as generic terms, by the way; "Harm" and other terms are probably too eccentric.

[Joe_Mello]

Here's how I interpreted it:
-Combat Skill teaches you where to hit.
-Martial Arts teaches you how to hit.
-Weapon allows you to hid harder.

Also, I treated the DT from Power Move as a base and modified it as per normal. That way it seems a logical exchange, EP for that extra push that Power Move gives.

[Jandar]

Here's how I interpreted it:
-Combat Skill teaches you where to hit.
-Martial Arts teaches you how to hit.
-Weapon allows you to hid harder.

Also, I treated the DT from Power Move as a base and modified it as per normal. That way it seems a logical exchange, EP for that extra push that Power Move gives.

Sure, I agree. And this stuff really works and does not obviously need modification. But I can understand Clay's standpoint, too.

The only discrepancy with Power Moves is that a character can easily be created with Martial Arts and Combat Skill (any level), where the Martial Arts level may give him exactly the same Damage Total as a Power Move 1 or 2, without the Endurance expenditure. The same thing is also possible with Weapon.

For example, if you have no extra Strength, but Martial Arts at +4, this gives you a basic damage multiplier of 1+4 = 5. This is the same as Power Move +2 (DT 5), except that you can make the Power Move ranged, etc.

[Joe_Mello]

From a quantitative standpoint, you're probably right, but what exactly is causing that 5 DT of damage? If it's just your straight MA score, then that's just a swift kick to the head, but if it's your Power Move, a Myu Myu Roundhouse Special is headed straight for the face of evil.

If you want to combine stuff into a single "to hit" and a single "damage" ability, fine, but I think Power Move needs to stay in simply because of it's thematic qualities. It says so in the book.

This is your most powerful attack, a concentration of your inner-energies into an overt force. Such an attack is usually very flashy and dynamic, making it a trademark for the fighter who uses it.

Additionally, if PM is supposed to be separate from the other modifiers, I as a GM would find it highly unlikely that such a skilled wielder of Martial Arts has a relatively sub-par set of super moves and would probably ask the player to either find a damn good explanation or rewrite the character. (It's also a good argument for allowing PM's to stack.)

[Mataterin]

Hey all. Long time listener and first time caller here. I like the idea of combining damage into one category but i have a few quick questions about putting it into action.

1st and probably easiest: From Clay's example of Raine above:

"Attack +4
Sword Strike (Armor Piercing, Decreased Damage) DT +3, End 0
Electrical Storm (Extra Damage, Area Effect x 2, Stun, Charge, Requirement: Must be Outside) DT 6, End 20
Raging Thunder Slash (Extra Damage x3) DT 7, End 20
Mist Touch (Armor Piercing x 2, Continued Damage, Will Attack, Decreased Damage) DT 3, End 20"

i think i'm a little lost on how the End cost was added for the last 3. shouldn't Electrical Storm cost 10 (extra damage +5, Area Effect x2 +20, Stun +10, Charge -20, Req. -5), and the last 2 attacks cost 15 End each? i know it sounds nitpicky, but I have demanding players and I want to make sure i understand. Otherwise i get roasted

Secondly, I'm curious how a simple handgun would get made (such as Braun's +2 weapon). Would the Ranged perk automatically make it cost 5 End in this proposed system, or would there be some special -5 requirement (Requires: handgun) that would balance that out? I can understand the Focus weakness being used for swords and the like, but just using that it seems any ranged weapon would cost endurance to shoot.
And extras with pistols would run out of endurance way too fast in that case. (Not that they last real long in a fight but it's the principle! )

Ideas?[/quote]

[Beli]

I think i'm a little lost on how the End cost was added for the last 3. shouldn't Electrical Storm cost 10 (extra damage +5, Area Effect x2 +20, Stun +10, Charge -20, Req. -5), and the last 2 attacks cost 15 End each? i know it sounds nitpicky, but I have demanding players and I want to make sure i understand.

Nah, it's not nitpicky, it's a good question. Clay is using the rules for Power Moves that state a power move begins costing 10 endurance before any flaws or perks are added. That's where the extra 10 endurance comes from. Guess that didn't come through in the example.

Secondly, I'm curious how a simple handgun would get made (such as Braun's +2 weapon). Would the Ranged perk automatically make it cost 5 End in this proposed system, or would there be some special -5 requirement (Requires: handgun) that would balance that out? I can understand the Focus weakness being used for swords and the like, but just using that it seems any ranged weapon would cost endurance to shoot.

And extras with pistols would run out of endurance way too fast in that case. (Not that they last real long in a fight but it's the principle!

In another thread, I proposed a new flaw called Charges, which Clay has apparently created in the Mecha supplement, and is thinking of placing in the main book. It would be a good way to knock out endurance charges for ranged weapons, since more ranged weapons should have armor piercing at some level as well.

Also, requirement is a multi-leveled flaw, so you could essentially set the cost from -5 to -20 to offset anything up to 20 points in perks, if you wanted to go that route.

[Clay]

Figures I'd screw up my own math. What I get for making posts when I'm too tired to think. Either way, this is not a final statblock for Raine anyway. But your corrections are, indeed, correct.

And yes, "Requirement" is sufficient for getting a perk for your handgun. In general, this new Ability makes it much harder to get "perks" for your Weapon, but that's probably a good thing. Under the old rules, it's very easy to combine horrors like Stun and Rapid Strike for essentially free. Not a pretty picture.

[Eisenmann]

Clay, I think your ideas on this are excellent. It would really streamline an already sleek system.

[Jandar]

From a quantitative standpoint, you're probably right, but what exactly is causing that 5 DT of damage? If it's just your straight MA score, then that's just a swift kick to the head, but if it's your Power Move, a Myu Myu Roundhouse Special is headed straight for the face of evil [...]

Additionally, if PM is supposed to be separate from the other modifiers, I as a GM would find it highly unlikely that such a skilled wielder of Martial Arts has a relatively sub-par set of super moves and would probably ask the player to either find a damn good explanation or rewrite the character. (It's also a good argument for allowing PM's to stack.)

That was only a mathematical thing. I have not yet come across a character who had a Power Move suite less powerful than their "unpowered" martial arts. It almost happened with one player-character recently, once, but in that case I stepped in right away and said, "Your Power Move would have to be bought at least at level such-and-such to make it different from your Martial Arts attack, because you're already that good with your martial arts."

Keeping an eye on that as GM is also recommendable, of course.

I fully second you on the idea that Power Moves/Attacks should be included in the rewrite, just because they represent all the genre-defining "finishing moves," "secret techniques," "super-punches," etc. that you see in so many manga and anime, but also in professional wrestling, in Hongkong movies, in video games (remember Virtua Fighter and all that?), on Pokémon cards, and so on.

By the way, my 9-year old nephew, who watched many vintage anime with me and is currently into Pokemon and Digimon, calls all the powerful moves a creature's "Attacks" anyway. It's just a moniker that comes naturally. BESM called them "Weapon Attacks" and optionally "Special Attacks."

[Joe_Mello]

That was only a mathematical thing. I have not yet come across a character who had a Power Move suite less powerful than their "unpowered" martial arts. It almost happened with one player-character recently, once, but in that case I stepped in right away . . .

Keeping an eye on that as GM is also recommendable, of course.

That was my point. Are we making the change to fix something that's broken or are we altering something that just requires some diligence?

[Jandar]

That was only a mathematical thing. I have not yet come across a character who had a Power Move suite less powerful than their "unpowered" martial arts. It almost happened with one player-character recently, once, but in that case I stepped in right away . . .

Keeping an eye on that as GM is also recommendable, of course.

That was my point. Are we making the change to fix something that's broken or are we altering something that just requires some diligence?

Good point, definitely.

I think we guys on this forum are all experienced gamers and can always apply our GM diligence and common sense. Most people should be able to do so.

We'll see what Clay is going to say about this. Up to him, after all.

[Clay]

The basic intent was just to simplify the process. OVA has been, and likely always will be, the sort of game a GM needs to keep an eye out for. But among his/her duties shouldn't be explaining why someone can get a Power Move weaker than their normal attack. Or what Martial Arts actually is. Or why you can only have one weapon but 6 Power Move attacks.

Although most folks on these forums seem to get it okay, I have personally seen 6 different groups of players completely misinterpret how Power Move works. (Not even including our friend Beli *nudge nudge wink wink*)

I just feel it can be streamlined to be much simpler, and more importantly, consistent. If a person builds every attack they have in the same way, it makes more sense. It also opens up the possibility for Martial Arts to have a series of moves without Endurance costs. Also, as someone else mentioned, it's REALLY useful for mooks and other quickly generated NPCs, or even just creating characters with versatile attacks. (Spike always kicks butt, whether he's shooting, kung-fu ing, or hitting people with impromptu objects.)

I'd do it right away, no questions asked, but I'm afraid I'm opening up for more confusion through an oversimplification. That's really what I'm trying to get a feel for here.[/i]