When the stars are right.

[Malancthon]

On one side, if the game allows for Uniques then it means you're expected to homebrew something, and I totally can get behind that. On the other hand, I'd stick as close to already present Abilities & Weaknesses as possible... but again, maybe that's just me

XOXO
Rose-

Unique Ability

Unique Weakness

Yep, that's in there.

OVA isn't meant to be the most balanced of games, but more of a rules-light effects based quick fun game. That means that some Abilities are going to be more powerful than others. There are ways to balance, either by enforcing Base Zero or Power Ceiling or Scaled Cost or all of them together- or that can be thrown out, since the general gist of the game is assuming a character is going to have a bunch of weaknesses to compensate for their power. Something a cruel GM (I am plying you with these words) would enjoy....

[Roswynn d'Cannith]

That'd still be the way a normal character or a group of normal characters would have to approach a "Monstrous Scaled" encounter. I imagine in a standard OVA game, such an encounter would not have any stats- as you say, it's more terrain or hazard based than boss battle fight.

But just like D&D of ye old who had stats for gods and the Terrasque, the "Monstrous Scale" provides an option to stat these hoary abominations with respect.

I'd like to point out that no D&D edition, not even the awesome current one, really does justice to how epic a fight vs a great wyrm or the Tarrasque would be, because it treats them as "just monsters", like big mega-strong goblins or orcs, while if you watched a fight against orcs in, say, LotR, and compared it to, again, say, Shepard's efforts against the Reapers in Mass Effect, you'd notice a definite difference. The normal combat rules are awesome for anything as big as an ogre, tops - and even then, I really would like to be able to climb the big turd and stab them in the noggin, instead of just hacking at their legs. Now, OVA is more generic, not all characters will be "Medium- or Small-sized Humanoids", so it'd make no sense to have that kind of rules in it, but it certainly would in D&D - fighting giants and dragons should definitely be different than a sword & buckler versus an evil cleric or what have you.
But I'm getting sidetracked, sorry

There is a tangible awe with having numbers in the high hundreds or in the thousands.

Agreed I totally get where you're coming from, here.

A good GM certainly can with good storytelling and roleplaying build up an encounter or scenario involving a gigantic or godlike threat without needing stats (Call of Cthlulhu, for example, says don't bother statting an Elder God), but having stats does solidify the encounter. Or helps a less skilled GM with context. Godzilla, for example, I think shines more accurately as a 2500 Health creature than a 100 Health creature. Same with the Abomination, it shines more as a 1000 Health creature than a 40 or 70 Health creature. You can take a quick look at it and know you will need to change to brown pants.

Again, agreed.

Then, going back with a normal group. Head on combat is going to be idiotic.

Very much so!

With just a single success, Godzilla's tail would flatten even the hardiest of characters. So they'd have to fight smart, use the terrain to hunt down a weak spot, maybe work to set up a psychic transceiver on the big G, all sorts of little things that could take up an entire session- just as you suggested as the way to approach the fight. Because the players can see just how much damage would be inflicted or how tough Godzilla himself is, and they'd be straight up doomed to try to take it on normally.

This actually is a reason why I separated out the abilities into Strong/Tough/Vigor equivalents. If the normal scaled characters do decide to take on such behemoths, not using the Monstrous Damage/Destruction/Yield/whatever Ability or having it at a lower level would allow normal characters to survive the monster's attacks. However, since a normal character would only be able to chip away at such high HP that though with luck or tactics the characters could win, the encounter would take forever or the characters would still likely succumb to attrition, it would behoove the players to think outside the box and for the encounter to play out session long without normal combat- just as you say. It would then depend on how lethal the encounter the GM wants it to be.

I like the way you think, buddy. Right now we're on the same page.

But then! Mecha G is a go! Jaeger protocol activates! We got DinoZord Power now! The characters win or survive or something that gives them a chance for equal fighting. Mazinger Z rises up and with a burning fire and a rocket punch is ready to end the fight!

And you do like 15 points of damage. Way to undervalue the impact. But at 75 points, 150 points, or 375 points (Monstrous Ability x5, x10, x25 respectively), now you got the numbers to back up just how cataclysmic, how monstrous, how epic the fight is. A win for the monsters, and a win for the players.

Aaand... yes, I can see what you're saying. The impact of the numbers is undeniable. I can't say otherwise. And I'll give you another one: OVA has a +5 cap to all Abilities. That means... it's hard to go wrong, but it's also hard to really accurately translate the power of a godlike being into hard cold rules, which might definitely be a need. There's Scale, which is brilliant, but most RPGs tend to break down when you bring in the real heavyweights. I don't know if OVA does... I suspect that's not the case, and I'll try to show you, in a second, but it's certainly a concern.

And again, yes, bigger numbers do have their appeal.

Now... let me see what I can do with OVA's rules, as is...

Let's take a Boss with 2 Health bars, Scale (roughly apartment building) & Extra Actions
Vigorous +5, Endurance 100
Tough +5, total vitality for 2 Health bars: 200
Strong +5 (with Scale)
Iron Willed +4
Intimidating +5
Combat Expert +3
Armored +4 (with Scale)
Attack +5
- Tail Lash, Area Effect +5, Armor Piercing +2, Barrier Buster +3, Effective +4, Impairing, Reach +4, Stunning, Concentration -3, Delayed, Open to Attack, Requirement (Needs Lots of Room), Unwieldy -3, DX 15, Endurance 5, affinity: bludgeoning
- Plus other minor attacks, whatever, I'm thinking of a typical kaiju shaped somewhat like Godzilla, so stomping, biting, clawing & trampling would all be nice, and of course fire or laser or plasma breath or whatever good ol' Gojira could do. Hell, even just a roar would count as an attack from this guy here.

Now, I've never run a beast like this so I'm not really sure how much damage it would do with the above-mentioned tail-lash, I think max damage is 450. But that's max damage, unlikely that PCs will defend so poorly they'll receive it all in the teeth, also considering the time it takes the beast to strike (Concentration represents the need to position itself & wind up its long thick heavy tail) they'll probably come up with some way to defend themselves pretty well... unless we make an example of Extras & Secondaries (which after all are 99% of almost any setting) - let me roll some dice...

I rolled a rather crappy 6 for its attack. Let's take from NPC Fragments some of everyone's favorite cannon fodder: ninja! Ninja extras, to boot. They don't have any particular defensive Ability, so let's roll a couple dice for their collective defense... Whoa, 12! They all dodged out of the way! These are some pretty cool ninja. Let's say, though, for the sake of argument, that they had rolled a 4.
(6-4)x15=30 damage.
Enough to kill them on the spot (or KO them, depends on the series' rating and the intended audience), b/c it reduces both Health and Endurance to 0. Up to 15 ninja, curbstomped.

I admit the numbers don't look as good as those big ones you managed to come out with thanks to your Unique, but even with a Combat Expert of only +3 and a crappy die roll the monster did its job pretty well (and I didn't even list other attacks).

Plus, Scale really works well. On all Abilities. You can have Smart+5, and then be faced with a god with Smart+5 & Scale: deity, and feel like a toddler or a simpleton, while a Quick Ability holds only as long as you're competing against other human beings, as a cheetah would have the Scale advantage... also, if we consider Mass Effect's Leviathans in light of this, it'll be easy for them to destroy anything smaller (and gods, are they ever big), resist blows from conventional weapons (b/c they have Scaled Armor) and totally mind control anything unlike themselves, Reapers included (and as it happens, it happens, right after Shepard's little vis-a-vis with them).

And then, as you said, you bring a big mecha with you and punch a Leviathan right in its, uhm, tentacles, and Scale fixes everything - if the mecha is about as big as the Leviathan (not really Mass Effect stuff, but bear with me) the Scale will be the same, and if you bring an even bigger mecha, then it will have the Scale advantage over the Leviathan. Scale is really a little brilliant piece of RPG design, extremely versatile and useful, and it doesn't need hard & complex rules, just a basic understanding among the players. I couldn't be more satisfied of it.

But again, your Uniques really drive the point home. And I'm a firm proponent of different strokes for different folks. I still think for my needs Scale would be enough (most of all if it applies even to damage-related Strong, of which I'm not sure at all), and perhaps I'd style a Unique after Endurance Reserve to reflect an energy-storing organ in a kaiju, but all in all I'm in no hurry to add this level of houseruling to a game which has repeatedly proven to be tough enough to model so many circumstances without breaking down.

Still, gotta love those big 9999 damage appearing when you hit the enemy

[Roswynn d'Cannith]

Speaking of which, all those Abilities for the Leviathan from Mass Effect 3? I mentioned that said image was a place holder for the broader zoology of Elderich Abomination such as Lovecraft's Cosmic Horror setting for example. Though I'm pretty sure without Monsterous Scale or Longevity, the levels needed in that sample list alone would potentially make said creature break nearly all other Character Creation Rules that Clay had put in the book just to make it formidable enough to be a threat to starting PCs, let alone veteran ones.

Use the Scale, Luke No, really, Scale is very good in taking care of these things. You give a Lovecraftian Cosmic Horror Scale advantage on Smart, Psychic, Strong, Armored etc... you're good to go. Even though I somewhat agree that cosmic horrors are a little demeaned by stats...

Also, Clay has often noted that the Unique Ability/Weakness/Perk/Flaw is there to give players and GMs the ability to create rules for a setting or character that the others don't cleanly apply, if any. So homebrewed rules aren't shunned away so long as everyone else within the group agrees with them and they have fun with it.

I wasn't implying that - sorry if I came across too strong. It's just that I'm a big coward and I'm scared of mixing it up with the big boys

[Roswynn d'Cannith]

Unique Ability

Unique Weakness

Yep, that's in there.

Come on, Mal, I know it's in there! I wasn't doubting anything, I know it's totally feasible, it's just that I'm very cautious when homebrewing and prefer to use existing rules in new ways instead of creating new ones... simple as that

OVA isn't meant to be the most balanced of games, but more of a rules-light effects based quick fun game. That means that some Abilities are going to be more powerful than others. There are ways to balance, either by enforcing Base Zero or Power Ceiling or Scaled Cost or all of them together- or that can be thrown out, since the general gist of the game is assuming a character is going to have a bunch of weaknesses to compensate for their power. Something a cruel GM (I am plying you with these words) would enjoy....

Well, don't diss OVA too much, now

Oh, and consider me plyed

[Malancthon]

Use the Scale, Luke No, really, Scale is very good in taking care of these things. You give a Lovecraftian Cosmic Horror Scale advantage on Smart, Psychic, Strong, Armored etc... you're good to go. Even though I somewhat agree that cosmic horrors are a little demeaned by stats...

Hmm. Scale indeed might be a sufficient solution to what Longevity would propose. Normally one would expect to use Scale for physical contests. But if opening to the idea of Scale for other uses like in Connected, Famous, Knowledge, Smart, or Wealthy; that certainly could do the trick for what Longevity would in effect do.

Well, don't diss OVA too much, now

I certainly don't mean to be disparaging- it's straight from the creator's mouth.

I'm pretty sure Clay has said it plenty of other times that he intentionally made balance loose and flexible in interest to make a faster and more dynamic game.

And My "Monstrous Scale Abilities" are certainly not for everyone. If you don't need those higher numbers, then don't use those abilities! There's nothing wrong with keeping the encounters 'book legal'. There's numerous ways to approach 'high power' play. For Me, I wanted high numbers.

I'd say what I've generated is more fair than what D&D or Palladium does. Those systems just throw on impossible number of levels with impossible to generate stats and call it good. There is no way a PC can match them- so don't even try. Wanna be like Goku or Superman? Sure, but you'll still never match these NPCs! But with the "Monstrous Scale Abilities", one can still make a normal PC or NPC that plays just like normal and with a few quick levels, have something with dynamic numbers that replicate a video game feel or an over-the-top shonen, tokusatsu, or mecha feel.

I remember some 15 years ago (yes, I'm old) looking back at the Rifts: Pantheons of the Megaverse. I loved many of the ideas, and those ludicrous stats drew grins of excitement and inspiration out of Me. But then... the realization that as neat as those designs were, it was all unfeasible for players to match. That always bothered Me.

[Clay]

I can’t think of much to add that hasn’t been addressed well and verbosely by the various contributors here, but just in case anybody’s waiting on my OFFICIAL WORD™…

1) In my own game, I would probably recommend using Scale to handle any vast discrepancy in power. And yes, that includes social and mental Abilities.

2) That said, BIG NUMBERS ARE FUN, and I certainly see no issue in making use of them as suggested here. It would require quite a bit of playtesting to make sure it works—but you can always just cut down a big bad’s health mid-game if it feels like it’s becoming too much of a slog.

3) For Longevity specifically, I would probably just increase their Smart, etc. and make use of Scale for godlike terrors. But there’s nothing inherently wrong with the idea, and the use of a flat bonus when relevant is in tune with the rest of OVA.

3) Oh dear, I’m being quoted from other threads. I’m waiting for the moment when someone drags up an embarrassing typo from years ago!

[Malancthon]

2) That said, BIG NUMBERS ARE FUN, and I certainly see no issue in making use of them as suggested here. It would require quite a bit of playtesting to make sure it works—but you can always just cut down a big bad’s health mid-game if it feels like it’s becoming too much of a slog.

I'm still working on playtesting it. I'm more of a player than a GM, I just tend to have... ideas.

In theory, one or two level difference isn't going to cause too much of a slog. The biggest hurdles would be going level 0 versus level 1 (5 times difference, or roughly equal to Scale) and level 2 versus level 3 (4 times difference). The rest of the level differences are just times 2. So it shouldn't be too much of a hurdle. But once the characters gain Levels 1 and 2, they should be okay in keeping up without it slowing things down.

I'll eventually post an addendum on the Over-The-Top Idea thread on thoughts I've had regarding making sure the Abilities do not become too unbalanced or unwieldy, as well as progression ideas.

If it works, I have no problems with Clay taking the idea or modifying the idea for a sort of "OVA Z" version.

3) For Longevity specifically, I would probably just increase their Smart, etc. and make use of Scale for godlike terrors. But there’s nothing inherently wrong with the idea, and the use of a flat bonus when relevant is in tune with the rest of OVA.

Yeah, I like the idea because it is in tune with the rest of OVA, but Scale might again be the better solution.

3) Oh dear, I’m being quoted from other threads. I’m waiting for the moment when someone drags up an embarrassing typo from years ago!

There are twelve years of quotes on this forum... it's tempting to do so!

[Roswynn d'Cannith]

Hmm. Scale indeed might be a sufficient solution to what Longevity would propose. Normally one would expect to use Scale for physical contests. But if opening to the idea of Scale for other uses like in Connected, Famous, Knowledge, Smart, or Wealthy; that certainly could do the trick for what Longevity would in effect do.

Reread pp.100-101 of the rulebook... I get the almost palpable feeling Scale can be used for all contests, be they physical, mental or social

I certainly don't mean to be disparaging- it's straight from the creator's mouth.

I'm pretty sure Clay has said it plenty of other times that he intentionally made balance loose and flexible in interest to make a faster and more dynamic game.

Well, in my defense I was kidding, but my bad! I haven't had the occasion to read much from His Turtleness

I'd say what I've generated is more fair than what D&D or Palladium does. Those systems just throw on impossible number of levels with impossible to generate stats and call it good. There is no way a PC can match them- so don't even try. Wanna be like Goku or Superman? Sure, but you'll still never match these NPCs! But with the "Monstrous Scale Abilities", one can still make a normal PC or NPC that plays just like normal and with a few quick levels, have something with dynamic numbers that replicate a video game feel or an over-the-top shonen, tokusatsu, or mecha feel.

I must agree, dear sir (or madam, but you give me more of a "sir" vibe, Mal, hope I'm not offending). I'd add that the OVA rules as they are already do a good job for that kind of characters IMVHO but as I often say, different strokes and all that.

I'd like to clarify one little tangent: the current D&D iteration, with bound accuracy and all in all more reasonable characters and less disparity between low and high levels, doesn't intend to model really powerful beings unless you're in the whereabouts of lvl 20 (the level cap), and even then you won't be a god, or Goku, or Superman. You'll never be able to lift a building-sized structure or creature (at least not without magic, although in the DMG there are rules to advance your character epically while still staying put at level 20, and they're real good, and even at lower levels your party, if you play your cards well, will stand a fighting chance against archdemons).

I remember some 15 years ago (yes, I'm old) looking back at the Rifts: Pantheons of the Megaverse.

Awesome book! And no, outwardly I'm not that old, I studied an alchemical formula to preserve my youthful appearance

I loved many of the ideas, and those ludicrous stats drew grins of excitement and inspiration out of Me. But then... the realization that as neat as those designs were, it was all unfeasible for players to match. That always bothered Me.

Well then thanks gods the hobby has moved forward! Now you have games like OVA, or Exalted, or Mythender, (or Primetime Adventures, or Anima Prime, or Mortal Coil... ) and can face down those pesky gods with an orichalcum daiklave as big as Cloud's Buster Sword and a bevvy of special effect surrounding you like a halo of badassitude

[Roswynn d'Cannith]

I can’t think of much to add that hasn’t been addressed well and verbosely by the various contributors here, but just in case anybody’s waiting on my OFFICIAL WORD™…

1) In my own game, I would probably recommend using Scale to handle any vast discrepancy in power. And yes, that includes social and mental Abilities.

YES!!

2) That said, BIG NUMBERS ARE FUN, and I certainly see no issue in making use of them as suggested here. It would require quite a bit of playtesting to make sure it works—but you can always just cut down a big bad’s health mid-game if it feels like it’s becoming too much of a slog.

Big numbers also make it a little bit more complex, hence why you decided to cut down on unnecessarily high scores, I presume?... But dammit, yeah, they are fun

3) For Longevity specifically, I would probably just increase their Smart, etc. and make use of Scale for godlike terrors. But there’s nothing inherently wrong with the idea, and the use of a flat bonus when relevant is in tune with the rest of OVA.

I winz all tha interwebz. But you folks can have a few

3) Oh dear, I’m being quoted from other threads. I’m waiting for the moment when someone drags up an embarrassing typo from years ago!

It's only a matter of time, Your Turtleness

[Roswynn d'Cannith]

I'll eventually post an addendum on the Over-The-Top Idea thread on thoughts I've had regarding making sure the Abilities do not become too unbalanced or unwieldy, as well as progression ideas.

If it works, I have no problems with Clay taking the idea or modifying the idea for a sort of "OVA Z" version.

That would be awesomesauce! And yeah, if you elaborated a little on your Uniques to specify how to use them and how not to they'd be more palatable even for little ol' moi

XOXO
Rosie-

[Malancthon]

Okay, I do apologize for the thread going off topic regarding the Monstrous Scale Abilities idea.

So I think we've pretty much ascertained that Longevity would work better as just the normal Scale bonus. I'd propose swapping out Longevity to add in levels of Smart, then.

HEALTH: 1000
ENDURANCE: 1000
TV: 52 (57 Scaled)
DX[END] - Attack

• 25[0] - “Touch of Madness” (Continued Effect; No Gesture; Stunning; Will Attack. No Damage; Requirement, Psychic)

Level - Ability

• +3 - Armored *
• +3 - Fluency (Requirement, Psychic)
• +5 - Intimidating
• +3 - Minions
• +3 - Monstrous Durability
• +3 - Monstrous Vigor
• +3 - Monstrous Yield
• +5 - Psychic
• +3 - Smart

Level - Weakness

• -3 - Arrogant
• -3 - Awkward Size (Large)
• -3 - Bizarre Appearance “Elderich Abomination”
• -3 - Emotionless “Elderich Abomination”
• -3 - Infamous “Elderich Abomination”
• -2 - Mute
• -3 - Overconfident
• -3 - Rude
• -3 - Stubborn

* Indicates that Character Ability/ies are of higher value than human norm, thus applicable for Scaled Advantage

And since I know the "Monstrous Scale" Abilities can be divisive, one should be able to swap them for equivalent levels of Strong, Tough, and Vigor to have more 'book legal' variant.

HEALTH: 70
ENDURANCE: 70
TV:
DX[END] - Attack

• 1[0] - “Touch of Madness” (Continued Effect; No Gesture; Stunning; Will Attack. No Damage; Requirement, Psychic)

Level - Ability

• +3 - Armored *
• +3 - Fluency (Requirement, Psychic)
• +5 - Intimidating
• +3 - Minions
• +5 - Psychic
• +3 - Smart
• +3 - Strong
• +3 - Tough
• +3 - Vigor

Level - Weakness

• -3 - Arrogant
• -3 - Awkward Size (Large)
• -3 - Bizarre Appearance “Elderich Abomination”
• -3 - Emotionless “Elderich Abomination”
• -3 - Infamous “Elderich Abomination”
• -2 - Mute
• -3 - Overconfident
• -3 - Rude
• -3 - Stubborn

* Indicates that Character Ability/ies are of higher value than human norm, thus applicable for Scaled Advantage

Personally, I'd stick with the "Monstrous" variant, but this at least gives options for what would work best in one's game.

Well then thanks gods the hobby has moved forward! Now you have games like OVA, or Exalted, or Mythender, (or Primetime Adventures, or Anima Prime, or Mortal Coil... ) and can face down those pesky gods with an orichalcum daiklave as big as Cloud's Buster Sword and a bevvy of special effect surrounding you like a halo of badassitude

And now OVA can be counted among that pantheon.

[Roswynn d'Cannith]

Mmm, I'd posit that an eldritch abomination true to its name should have Smart +5 @ Scale: Eldritch Abomination (which is above humans and comparable to very powerful deities, IMVHO).

Other than that I wonder why Sabersonic gave them Infamous -3... they're usually not famous. Their whole existence is a well-hidden secret. If humans knew these things existed they would go crazy from the revelation blah blah add similar Lovecraftian nonsense

Good job though, Mal!

[Sabersonic]

Yeah, Scaled should help tremendously with a good chunk of Abilities Longevity would have normally covered.

As for why infamous? Well Elderich Abominations as a whole aren't exactly known to be the most benevolent of beings, with one aspect being that the mere sight of them causes madness. Not to mention that some of the cults that are dedicated to them aren't exactly comprised of the nicest people you know, if only because of the fact that they know of just the scale of chaos, death, and destruction an Elderich Abomination would do with their mere presence alone. If that doesn't count towards infamous, then I wouldn't know what would.

[Roswynn d'Cannith]

As for why infamous? Well Elderich Abominations as a whole aren't exactly known to be the most benevolent of beings, with one aspect being that the mere sight of them causes madness. Not to mention that some of the cults that are dedicated to them aren't exactly comprised of the nicest people you know, if only because of the fact that they know of just the scale of chaos, death, and destruction an Elderich Abomination would do with their mere presence alone. If that doesn't count towards infamous, then I wouldn't know what would.

I agree, but the text for Infamous reads like this:

Your reputation precedes you... in a very bad way. People may distrust you or even hate you, regardless of whether your reputation is deserved

I mean, the classic Lovecraftian eldritch abomination is unknown. Occultists have to research the best libraries they can access just to get a glimpse of what is that entity the crazy cultists with daggers worshipped in the antideluvian ruins. If you tell people Nyarlathotep is coming they'll go "Who's that, now?!". No one is supposed to know that Cthulhu exists but for a dozen of very insane gentlemen and a handful of very paranoid researchers. That's what I meant, Lovecraftian horrors don't usually have big reputations ("Look, it's Cthulhu! I recognize it by the tentacle-head, every RPG artist draws it more or less like that! Let's run for our lives!"), they only have Bizarre Appearance & Intimidating, which you already covered ("Look, it's a huge horrible monster roaring with hunger and malevolence as it rises from the Pacific, let's run for our lives!").

Unless you did it intentionally of course! If you want the eldritch abomination to be a well-known danger to all, and for everyone to readily know of the magnitude of its alien evil, no occult research needed, then it definitely has Infamous and I won't bother you no more.

[Sabersonic]

Yeah, it was intentional. Rumors and/or mysteries are abound when such Elderich Abominations are concerned and that only the fool hearty or the insane would seek them. Chances are, they won't come back as they left.