What about Combat Effectiveness vs Maximum Roll?

[Clay]

Yes, “Attack" isn’t ideal. If I could have come up with a better descriptor I would have.

The problem is Power implies some kind of innate strength, which works fine for martial arts and chi blasts, but is not terribly appropriate for weapons at all.

Damage works, but it’s even more woefully generic sounding than Attack, and is misleading for certain Attacks that DON’T cause damage.

Attack works really well because you can say things like “I have a Buster Sword Attack, and a Chi Blast Attack, and a Sweep Kick Attack” and it makes complete sense. Everyone knows what you’re talking about. Buster Sword Power? Buster Sword Damage? ...it just doesn’t work well for me.

I’ve considered changing the terminology of the Attack Roll instead. But Offense Roll sounds a little bogus, too. “Attack Roll” is just such well established wording at this point. But if I were to change something, that’s likely what it would be.

Anyone else have any thoughts on how confusing Attack and Attack Roll are? Is it really a problem?

[Gaigaia]

Clay, you said that some attacks don't cause damage, and that is true, but isn't the 'attack' ability only purpose to add to the DX? I don't have the revised rules, but, from what I could understand, all it does is to amplify damage from your attacks. Maybe it all boils down to preference, but for me I would prefer it to be named either 'Power' or 'Damage'.

But what you told about 'power' makes complete sense, it really sounds like something innate. So, I will call it 'Damage' in my tables, since that is what the ability does: amplifies damage at the same rate of it's modifier (Damage +2 = Dx +2). Also, I liked the idea of StarRaven, of naming 'Techniques' the Special Attacks. Either 'Special Attacks' or 'Techniques' is a very neat name, both coming from Anime and Games loredom. I like it a lot.

But on the subject of naming things, it is as StarRaven also pointed: the first reaction for any new player will be to add the Attack ability to the Attack Roll dice. It's very counter-intuitive, but in no way worse than many other rpgs, so it is really not a big problem. I'm just being picky, no need to be troubled with that. I'm, in fact, a very picky person, I hope to not get on you guys nerves.

[CursedEmbrace]

But on the subject of naming things, it is as StarRaven also pointed: the first reaction for any new player will be to add the Attack ability to the Attack Roll dice. It's very counter-intuitive, but in no way worse than many other rpgs, so it is really not a big problem. I'm just being picky, no need to be troubled with that. I'm, in fact, a very picky person, I hope to not get on you guys nerves.

Totally with you on the whole counter intuitiveness of the attack ability's naming, but I totally wouldn't worry about being picky, we probably all are. Just recently I made a personal OVA character sheet for roll20 (then a 2nd one for a more house-ruled campaign) and initially I was happy with a very bare bones thing but quickly discovered that I just couldn't and have been tinkering with it ever since.

Speaking of ambiguous writing I was recently trying to decide whether a Barrier with Effective would require its own damage roll or whether the defence roll you make with the Effective Barrier initially is the damage roll instead. Would the Barrier's attack be just the Barrier dice alone or the standard 2d6 +Barrier (2nd one is more likely I guess, given that most of the game's rolls are 2d6 +/- modifiers.

[Gaigaia]

Well, so I will not be afraid of my pickiness anymore, ha!

In regards to the whole 'attack' vs 'damage' naming, I think I've said everything concerning my opinion. But, since you started talking about barrier, I also have some problems with it (althought they might have been solved with the revised edition, which I don't have).

The thing with barrier is that it is a defensive action that super-seeds the normal defensive action, which costs endurance to activate and you can pay mor endurance to take less damage. My problem with this is that you can use nullifying powers to a better usage of endurance. I call nullifying powers the ones such Incorporeal and Time Stop, where you can just activate and nullify any damage received. Why would you use Barrier when, if you have +4 in incorporeal or time stop, you can pay 5 endurance and just ignore damage?

I've been kind of scared to allow players to get those abilities (Incorporeal, Time Stop, and also transformation) because I do find them very powerful. I believe that all of them would pick transformation - they are very reminiscent of DeD players and will take many chances to min/max their characters, and transformation gives you basically double the points you spend you on it. What I'm thinking about is changeing Time Stop and Incorporeal, to, instead of just nullifying attack, they cost 5 endurance to activate and you can add their dice to your defense or attack pool. But, as I said before, such concerns are more likely matters of personal taste of mine, and stuff like that should be added in house rules instead of the main book. Nevertheless, I like expressing my opinion.

Regarding your question about barriers, are you talking about Attack Barriers? I believe they cause damage = to their level. So, Barrier +3 would cause 3 damage. The effective perk would give bônus to defense rolls, and the extra damage would give bônus to the damage, I believe. So, if you had Barrier Attack +3, with perks (Effect +2, Damage +2), it would cost 30 Endurance to activate.

(Since I'm seeing that we are kind of changing the original subject of this post, I am thinking of writing a new one for such concerns about ponctual things with the rules. But first, I would like to see if others have concerns like these)

[CursedEmbrace]

Well, so I will not be afraid of my pickiness anymore, ha!

In regards to the whole 'attack' vs 'damage' naming, I think I've said everything concerning my opinion. But, since you started talking about barrier, I also have some problems with it (althought they might have been solved with the revised edition, which I don't have).

The thing with barrier is that it is a defensive action that super-seeds the normal defensive action, which costs endurance to activate and you can pay mor endurance to take less damage. My problem with this is that you can use nullifying powers to a better usage of endurance. I call nullifying powers the ones such Incorporeal and Time Stop, where you can just activate and nullify any damage received. Why would you use Barrier when, if you have +4 in incorporeal or time stop, you can pay 5 endurance and just ignore damage?

I've been kind of scared to allow players to get those abilities (Incorporeal, Time Stop, and also transformation) because I do find them very powerful. I believe that all of them would pick transformation - they are very reminiscent of DeD players and will take many chances to min/max their characters, and transformation gives you basically double the points you spend you on it. What I'm thinking about is changeing Time Stop and Incorporeal, to, instead of just nullifying attack, they cost 5 endurance to activate and you can add their dice to your defense or attack pool. But, as I said before, such concerns are more likely matters of personal taste of mine, and stuff like that should be added in house rules instead of the main book. Nevertheless, I like expressing my opinion.

Regarding your question about barriers, are you talking about Attack Barriers? I believe they cause damage = to their level. So, Barrier +3 would cause 3 damage. The effective perk would give bônus to defense rolls, and the extra damage would give bônus to the damage, I believe. So, if you had Barrier Attack +3, with perks (Effect +2, Damage +2), it would cost 30 Endurance to activate.

(Since I'm seeing that we are kind of changing the original subject of this post, I am thinking of writing a new one for such concerns about ponctual things with the rules. But first, I would like to see if others have concerns like these)

Oh I was talking the 2nd edition Kickstarter preview. There isn't a separate skill for offensive barriers any more, now you can just add perks to the barrier skill... I'll paste the little section on it which is where my question(s) came from:

"The Perk Effective allows Barrier to be used somewhat offensively. Should any-one try to attack without the Ranged Perk, or otherwise enter the area protected by the Barrier, they will receive Damage. In this case, Barrier is treated like an Attack roll against zero, and damage is calculated accordingly."

Additionally Barrier no longer costs Endurance to use at all, unless you connect the Endurance Use weakness to it (or if you load it up with perks, obviously). Additionally Incorporeal Form has become more a different kind of defence roll (like Evasive, Barrier ect) instead of just paying to negate attacks (though I personally like to keep the pay for negating attacks version around for particularly powerful/gimmicky villains).

Transformation is pretty much the same with the double points for each level you take in it, but exactly how it is used is obviously down to the players themselves and what you'll allow (or the GM at any rate).

Often I don't mind what my players get transformation wise, as often these transformations cannot be maintained indefinitely, or have a particular condition before they can be used or whatever.

In fact, in one of the campaigns I'm running with my gf and a good overseas friend my gf runs a character who has a suite of transformations (4 in total, plus 'normal' size) that represent the character altering her size. Despite all of the different bonuses and negatives of the various transformations she is probably the 2nd or 3rd most combat competent character of the player party, but then again her goal was probably not to super min-max anyway, so as I said I think it depends more on the GM and the player than the ability itself.

[Gaigaia]

Maybe, for every Effective Perk, the Barrier causes 1d damage? So, Effective +3 = 3d roll? I don't know.

I liked this change for incorporeal, but what about Time Stop? Is that still overpowered?

There is a brazillian rpg which uses transformation in a different way. basically, you may have different forms with the same ammount of abilities points, + any bonus from transformation. So, Transformation +1 would allow you to create 'another' character with +1 ability point.

Or you could have another power, called Alternate Form. +1 would give another form, +2 would give around 3 forms, +3, 10 forms and stuff like that. This would be a substitute for Transformation, maybe, and would be interesting for characters like Bruce Banner and the Hulk, where the characters have completely different sets of skills.

Also, for characters that like playing things like Shapeshifters with infinite forms, you could use Arcane Magic with the 'transformations' being evolutions and the character adapting. This is a good way to play things like blobs able to mold into whatever they want.

For powers like Growing and Shrinking, I think I would give them separate abilities and just add to Attack, Damage, Defense or Armor.

[CursedEmbrace]

Maybe, for every Effective Perk, the Barrier causes 1d damage? So, Effective +3 = 3d roll? I don't know.

I liked this change for incorporeal, but what about Time Stop? Is that still overpowered?

There is a brazillian rpg which uses transformation in a different way. basically, you may have different forms with the same ammount of abilities points, + any bonus from transformation. So, Transformation +1 would allow you to create 'another' character with +1 ability point.

Or you could have another power, called Alternate Form. +1 would give another form, +2 would give around 3 forms, +3, 10 forms and stuff like that. This would be a substitute for Transformation, maybe, and would be interesting for characters like Bruce Banner and the Hulk, where the characters have completely different sets of skills.

Also, for characters that like playing things like Shapeshifters with infinite forms, you could use Arcane Magic with the 'transformations' being evolutions and the character adapting. This is a good way to play things like blobs able to mold into whatever they want.

For powers like Growing and Shrinking, I think I would give them separate abilities and just add to Attack, Damage, Defense or Armor.

Time Freeze is almost like a different ability now to be honest. No just paying endurance to negate stuff on that either. When you make use of it you choose to either grant yourself a bonus to everything 'speed' related you can do (ala Super Speed from 1st edition, or just like adding more ranks of 'Quick' to your character) or you can slow down your enemies, giving them a penalty (as if they had ranks of Slow, essentially). Additionally if you take multiple actions in a single turn until you exceed a number of bonus actions equal to your rank in Time Freeze they don't suffer the usual multiple action dice penalties. Definitely still powerful, but very different from the previous edition.

[Gaigaia]

I didn't understand exactly what you meant with the Time Stop. Could you re-explain that please ?

[CursedEmbrace]

I didn't understand exactly what you meant with the Time Stop. Could you re-explain that please ?

Well I don't want to copy paste too much out of the preview or anything, obviously but one ability can't hurt...

Time is constant…or was until you came along. You have the ability to slow or even freeze the flow of time. For each Level in Time Freeze, you gain an equivalent bonus in all tests of speed and quickness—or a penalty to those of your opponents’. While this Ability requires you to perform an action in Combat, you may offset the Multiple Actions penalty by an amount equal to your Level in Time Freeze.

As you can see, it is an almost totally different skill now, compared to 1st ed and while it still provides a potential boost to defence you don't just buy away attacks.

[Gaigaia]

So, basically, it automatically gives you extra actions. If the rules are the same at the revised edition for multiple actions (you have a penalty equal to the number of actions done, so 3 actions would be -3 dice), then Time Stop 3 would automatically give you 3 actions, since the penalty would be 0.