Specializations

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Belisarion
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Specializations

Post by Belisarion »

How would you handle specialization in an universal ability? For the sake of simplicity I don't apply Perks/Flaws.

For example, there is a PC who is a capable fighter (combat expertise +1) with melee weapons, but excels especially with swords. For swords his close combat ought to be +3.

My aproach would be regarding the attack roll:
Agile +1
Combat Expertise +1
Weapon Specialization, swords (Unique Ability) +2
Attack(swords) +1

Attacks:
Hammer Roll: 2 DX: 1 END: 0
Longsword Roll: 4 DX: 2 END: 0
Second example, there is a mage which spells (evocation school) deal a damage, but especially excel using the element of fire.
Smart +2 (for arcane spellcasting instead of Agile)
Combat Expertise(Evocation Spells) +1
Elemental specialization, fire (Unique Ability) +2
Attack(fire spells) +2

Attacks:
Magic Missile Roll: 5 DX: 1 END: 0
Ray of Fire Roll: 7 DX: 3 END: 0

Is my thinking correct or do you see any flaws?
Malancthon
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Re: Specializations

Post by Malancthon »

The closest OVA has would be using Knowledge instead of Combat Expert. I'm not fond of that, though, as it could lead to crippling overspecialization.

Personally, I'd just build the character with a focus on a certain type of attacks (sword or fireballs, for example), and let the character sort of ignore the other styles, as it's not the character's style.

For example, in the western movie 'Quigley Down Under', the hero, Quigley, is a master of the rifle. The climax has his rifle taken away from him and a revolver is placed in his belt. The bad guy, who dreams himself as an evil western baron, wants to have a quickdraw contest, figuring he has the advantage over the riflemaster. When Quigley wins the quickdraw, he explains "I said I never had much use for one. I never said I didn't know how to use it."
Chris Brady
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Re: Specializations

Post by Chris Brady »

Actually, Quigley Down Under, Quigley is a master gunslinger, he just prefers to use the rifle. He's not any better, just has a preference for a long arm.

Here's the thing, a lot of 90's and early 2000s anime characters tended to hyper-specialize into one thing, whether it's brawling, magic or swordsmanship. A single weapon (assuming it's a Shonen) that doubles as a super hero costume, a visual identifier for the viewing audience.

Which is why Knowledge in OVA should probably the default for action characters.
"And now my friends, a Dragon's Toast! To life's little blessings; wars, plagues and all forms of evil. Their presence keeps us alert-- And their absence keeps us grateful!" - T.A. Barron
Malancthon
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Re: Specializations

Post by Malancthon »

Chris Brady wrote:Here's the thing, a lot of 90's and early 2000s anime characters tended to hyper-specialize into one thing, whether it's brawling, magic or swordsmanship. A single weapon (assuming it's a Shonen) that doubles as a super hero costume, a visual identifier for the viewing audience.

Which is why Knowledge in OVA should probably the default for action characters.
I'll generally disagree with that (I don't think Knowledge should ever be a combat skill). While an anime character does tend to have a signature weapon or attack, they're usually not defenseless without it. As Clay previously said.
Clay wrote:The reason losing a weapon typically doesn't reduce your DX all that much without using one of these avenues is that, if you watch most actiony anime, characters are generally only mildly inconvenience by their weapon loss. They stomp a plank in the floor, sock opponents in the face, or otherwise manage to continue doing damage just fine, minus a few small perks like Raine's Armor Piercing or a DX bonus. It's still in their interest to recover their weapon, but they're rarely defenseless without it. But if you want to cleanly divide a character's offensive capability from their weaponry, the above options will do the trick.
To expand on that, Clay has mentioned using Focus as a way to, well, focus your specialization. It might seem offputting, since Focus tends to refer to a physical item that allows you to channel your abilities through, but it could also be a mental focus or focus of expertise. Here's what Clay has suggested to put Attack and Focus together.
Clay wrote:I think what you are looking for with the first character is, as you say, a combination of Attack and Focus. Without her focus (the weapon) she completely loses the DX bonus for Attack.

You could be pedantic and argue she doesn't ACTUALLY lose the moves powered by her weapon, but we aren't running a computer simulation here. When she loses her scythe, continuing to use the scythe related moves is silly. Just pretend those moves are also lost along with her Attack Bonus, even though they do not technically have the Weapon Flaw.

For your shotgun gauntlet character, there's a few options. For the sake of discussion, let's say you want her to have 5 DX with gloves and 3 DX without.

1) Give her Strong +2 and Attack +2 and link Attack to a Focus Weakness. Without her gloves, her 3 DX bonus is still achieved by virtue of Strong alone.
2) Give her Strong +1, Attack +1, and create a Gear with Attack +2. Without her gloves, she still has 3 DX from both Strong and Attack, but she technically only gets a small +1 bonus to strength-related rolls. The remaining +2 DX bonus is from the Gear.
3) Give her Strong +1 and Attack +1, and create attack moves with the Weapon Flaw that boost up her DX by 2 (For example, taking both the Weapon and Innacurate Flaws.)
Belisarion
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Re: Specializations

Post by Belisarion »

Malancthon wrote:1) Give her Strong +2 and Attack +2 and link Attack to a Focus Weakness. Without her gloves, her 3 DX bonus is still achieved by virtue of Strong alone.
2) Give her Strong +1, Attack +1, and create a Gear with Attack +2. Without her gloves, she still has 3 DX from both Strong and Attack, but she technically only gets a small +1 bonus to strength-related rolls. The remaining +2 DX bonus is from the Gear.
3) Give her Strong +1 and Attack +1, and create attack moves with the Weapon Flaw that boost up her DX by 2 (For example, taking both the Weapon and Innacurate Flaws.)
That sounds fitting, so focus and perks/weaknesses it is.
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Re: Specializations

Post by Chris Brady »

Malancthon wrote:
Chris Brady wrote:Here's the thing, a lot of 90's and early 2000s anime characters tended to hyper-specialize into one thing, whether it's brawling, magic or swordsmanship. A single weapon (assuming it's a Shonen) that doubles as a super hero costume, a visual identifier for the viewing audience.

Which is why Knowledge in OVA should probably the default for action characters.
I'll generally disagree with that (I don't think Knowledge should ever be a combat skill). While an anime character does tend to have a signature weapon or attack, they're usually not defenseless without it. As Clay previously said.

Knowledge replaces Hobby, which if I remember an old discussion with Clay, could be used to combat. It's been years, so you could be right.

HOWEVER, that being said, in 90's and early 00's, and till now to a certain degree, a lot of Shonen heroes use only a single weapon, and only that weapon. Which is used as a visual identifier, along with their clothes.
"And now my friends, a Dragon's Toast! To life's little blessings; wars, plagues and all forms of evil. Their presence keeps us alert-- And their absence keeps us grateful!" - T.A. Barron
Malancthon
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Re: Specializations

Post by Malancthon »

Chris Brady wrote:Knowledge replaces Hobby, which if I remember an old discussion with Clay, could be used to combat. It's been years, so you could be right.
In the book, it does suggest to use Knowledge to specialize in a specific combat technique, rather than generally skilled in attacking.

I'm just saying I wouldn't use that suggestion, because then you'd get to the weirdness of if Knowledge should be half-cost and etc. In general, using Knowledge for combat skills seems messier than it's worth.
Chris Brady wrote:HOWEVER, that being said, in 90's and early 00's, and till now to a certain degree, a lot of Shonen heroes use only a single weapon, and only that weapon. Which is used as a visual identifier, along with their clothes.
Just because the hero uses only a single weapon doesn't mean that's the only weapon they can use. A signature weapon is still not their only combat ability.
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Re: Specializations

Post by Chris Brady »

Malancthon wrote:
Chris Brady wrote:Knowledge replaces Hobby, which if I remember an old discussion with Clay, could be used to combat. It's been years, so you could be right.
In the book, it does suggest to use Knowledge to specialize in a specific combat technique, rather than generally skilled in attacking.

I'm just saying I wouldn't use that suggestion, because then you'd get to the weirdness of if Knowledge should be half-cost and etc. In general, using Knowledge for combat skills seems messier than it's worth.
Then don't make it half cost?
Malancthon wrote:
Chris Brady wrote:HOWEVER, that being said, in 90's and early 00's, and till now to a certain degree, a lot of Shonen heroes use only a single weapon, and only that weapon. Which is used as a visual identifier, along with their clothes.
Just because the hero uses only a single weapon doesn't mean that's the only weapon they can use. A signature weapon is still not their only combat ability.
Actually, yes it did. Very rarely did you ever see the Hero(ine)s actually be without their weapon of choice. That includes Mecha, by the by.

Very few heroes had more than one weapon skill under their belt that they showed.
"And now my friends, a Dragon's Toast! To life's little blessings; wars, plagues and all forms of evil. Their presence keeps us alert-- And their absence keeps us grateful!" - T.A. Barron
Belisarion
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Re: Specializations

Post by Belisarion »

Then again a detail escaped me while quickly reading from cover to cover.
This Ability covers the method of attacking
in general, rather than any single
weapon or fighting style. To specialize in
a specific combat technique, choose it as
a Knowledge instead.
Does instead imply that combat expert is excluded when a combat knowledge is applied?

Example:
combat expert +1
knowledge(karate) +3

Would for example a karate attack be calculated
...combat +1, knowledge(karate) +3, base +2 = Roll 6
or
... knowledge(karate) +3, base +2 = Roll 5, thus without combat expert on top
?
Malancthon
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Re: Specializations

Post by Malancthon »

Chris Brady wrote:Then don't make it half cost?
Or just don't use it.

My biggest problem is it's such a loosely defined broad Ability. You could be knowledgeable in mechanics, airplanes, motorcycles; you could be knowledgeable in astrophysics or Matoran or languages. Knowledge serves better as a way to round a character, making them know something more than just be a sum of abilities, giving them more character.

Besides, just because I know a lot about Bruce Lee and Jeet Kune Do, does not make Me a martial artist.
Chris Brady wrote:Actually, yes it did. Very rarely did you ever see the Hero(ine)s actually be without their weapon of choice. That includes Mecha, by the by.

Very few heroes had more than one weapon skill under their belt that they showed.
Not really. Okay, Mecha: Amuro still was able to pilot various MS despite the Gundam being the signature weapon for him. He still fought with pistol and unarmed arts. Heck, the final battle in the original Gundam was between him and Char outside of their MS, with fencing sabers!

Vash the Stampede used his revolver almost exclusively. He also had the hidden machine pistol in his left arm, as well as the Angel Arms. Not only that, he also displayed some kung faux as he tried to comically avoid hurting people, or even used a toy gun once.

Guts has his signature Dragon Slayer sword, but also has throwing knives and his arm cannon and repeating crossbow. That doesn't stop him from also grabbing anything nearby to fight with if he needs to (which he often does, when going against Acolytes).

Any member of the Getter team can pilot any Get Machines and configuration of the Getter. Just because they have a preference for a certain machine doesn't mean they can't and won't change things up. Morever, they do show to use knives, guns, bazookas, axes, swords, grenades- anything those crazy pilots can get their hands on.

Cloud from FF7 only has swords as his weapons in the game, but as a Soldier we know he can also use guns and magic.

Tommy the Power Ranger, excluding the fact that his character is cobbled together from about 5 different Sentai, fights with an evil sword, a dagger, martial arts, and different Zords, even taking over other Zords if someone is incapacitated.

So, no. Just because a character has a signature weapon or something doesn't exclude them from having other attacks- even if it's something we don't see happen often or at all, because the show doesn't need to focus on that situation.
Belisarion wrote:Does instead imply that combat expert is excluded when a combat knowledge is applied?

Example:
combat expert +1
knowledge(karate) +3

Would for example a karate attack be calculated
...combat +1, knowledge(karate) +3, base +2 = Roll 6
or
... knowledge(karate) +3, base +2 = Roll 5, thus without combat expert on top
?
It adds together. The instead in this instance means that Knowledge might be the more relevant Ability to select than the broadly skilled Combat Expert.

However, Combat Expert usually has a descriptor to generally describe the type of combat the character prefers (Such as Sword and Sorcery for Auren or Telekinetic Power for Ai). This doesn't mean they're restricted to such attacks, rather just what sort of attacks they'd often do.

It'd become redundant if Knowledge was used in the same way (although for Knowledge, it does restrict that dice to just that area). You then also get the potential for abuse with Agile+Combat Expert+Knowledge+Accurate.

Again, with the redundancy it could present, plus the differing uses of the ability, the dice pile-up it could do, and the question of if it should be half points or not, as well as none of the sample characters using it; I don't think using Knowledge for combat skills is worth it. It's an option, but not a good one IMO.

In fact, now that I think about it, Knowledge (Combat skill) would be good for characters who think they're better than they are. You know the trope of the prissy villain who claims to know how to kill with Hokuto Shinken, or is legendary with the sword- then is near useless in actual combat.

Going back to Quigley Down Under, Alan Rickman's character, the villainous Elliot Marston, is someone knowledgeable in cowboys and sharpshooting, but as Quigley says "This ain't Dodge City, and you ain't Bill Hickok." Marston would be an example of someone with Knowledge but not being skilled enough (low if any Combat Expert).
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Re: Specializations

Post by Chris Brady »

All the Kenshin characters, except for Kenshin where he schooled what's his face barehanded. Lina Inverse and crew, all had one weapon. Vash only used guns, and typically used his revolver exclusively, and had an inhumanly high dodge skill. Ruin Explorers... Martian Successor Nadesico... Rayearth...

Also, I said 'Shonen', and Berserk is Seinen (meant for an older demographic), Chaz and Amuro was back in the late 70's Gundam, not the era I was talking about, the 1990's, 10-20 years after.

Lately, at least, they've become a little more capable, but you still have hold overs, especially in Fantasy Anime. Danmachi's lead Bell Cranel is different for example, dual wielding small blades, two handing a larger one and using blasting magic, but most of the other characters stick to one weapon of choice.

So Knowledge as a combat skill is valid, after all, it's about knowing EVERYTHING about a topic, including it's use. You may not like it, but doesn't mean it's not actually a valid expression of what happens in some series.

I prefer well rounded characters, myself, but the weapon over-specialist is a very common trope in Shonen and Shoujou series.


And Combat Expert stacks with Knowledge. It would give you 6 dice, as per the example given.
"And now my friends, a Dragon's Toast! To life's little blessings; wars, plagues and all forms of evil. Their presence keeps us alert-- And their absence keeps us grateful!" - T.A. Barron
Belisarion
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Re: Specializations

Post by Belisarion »

I can live with this. If chars are well rounded, combat expert suffices and if there is one who ought to be unilaterally proficient, knowledge might be the addition I need.

So to me it appears, the game can be scaled to my liking. If I want an easy approach less and diversified abilities seem to be preferable. But I could also go for very elaborate choice of abilities if I wanted more depth.
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Re: Specializations

Post by Clay »

Long story short, if you’re not comfortable with the broad application of Combat Expert, taking a Knowledge instead is fine. I would lean to skipping on the 1/2 cost thing just to avoid people taking a Knowledge as a means of squeezing out extra points, but that’s up to you and your players.

For me, personally, I wouldn’t not bother using Knowledge to focus one’s expertise. The reason Vash uses his revolver is because A) he possesses it and B) it has an inherent damage bonus of some kind. There’s no reason to punch and kick when you have a gun. Likewise there’s no reason for him to use a different weapon because he has the revolver. Neither of these reasons have anything to do with whether he’s built with Combat Expert or not.

Likewise for the other examples. If a character only uses one weapon, it’s because that’s the weapon they have and want to use. I don’t see the value in going out of your way to make sure the character physically can’t hit with a different one under the rules. It might be tangently more realistic, but when we’re talking about most anime, I don’t think realism is worth striving for.

On a different note, the RPG Ironclaw has a rule called “Favored Use.” Basically every skill has one. Your Combat skill might have “with my favorite sword” or your Etiquette skill might have “when serving afternoon tea." It’s not quite specializing, because you don’t really get a bonus for it. But you get the benefit of rerolling fumbles when using your specialization.

It’s a small boon, at best, but it gives a lot of flavor and fills the need for “specialization” without really getting bogged down in it. Not sure how the concept would be best applied to OVA, but I’m sure you guys can think of something!
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Re: Specializations

Post by Chris Brady »

Belisarion wrote:I can live with this. If chars are well rounded, combat expert suffices and if there is one who ought to be unilaterally proficient, knowledge might be the addition I need.

So to me it appears, the game can be scaled to my liking. If I want an easy approach less and diversified abilities seem to be preferable. But I could also go for very elaborate choice of abilities if I wanted more depth.
Here's another thing, as Clay points out, OVA is flexible enough to handle a renaming. If you don't like the name 'Knowledge' and change it to 'Specialization', go for it. :)
"And now my friends, a Dragon's Toast! To life's little blessings; wars, plagues and all forms of evil. Their presence keeps us alert-- And their absence keeps us grateful!" - T.A. Barron
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