Arcane Magic Attribute

[jblittlefield]

So say for example I have Arcane Magic +3 and wish to emulate the effects of Invisibility +3.

Does this cost me 10 Endurance + a Casting Roll against a Difficulty of 8 (in order to cast the spell) and then another 10 Endurance (for Invisibility's Endurance cost) for a combined casting cost of 20 Endurance?

If all goes well, the effect lasts for one round; however, I am able to sustain the effects of Invisibility for 10 Endurance/round (1/2 the casting cost)...correct?

If my casting roll fails, I'm only out 10 Endurance...right?

[Clay]

You're right about all the numbers, however the reasoning for one of your equations is wrong.

When emulating an ability that has an Endurance cost associated with it per round, you use that cost instead.

All effects last one round, but may be kept in effect, where appropriate, by spending half the casting cost for each extra round. (However, some Abilities, like Barrier, can have longer effects with just one casting, and instead follow those rules.)

For example, if you had chosen to emulate Invisibility at +2 (for whatever unknown reason), it would cost you 20/round, as stated under Invisibility. Otherwise, you would be "cheating" the system. Coincidentally, when you cast Invisibility +3, it costs 10 a round.

Everything else you said is correct though. Magic is so far-reaching that it's by far the most complex rule in the game.

Actually, now that I think about it, I don't think the cost for the Ability (in this case, Invisibility) is included as part of the casting cost. The casting cost should be 10, not 20.

This isn't implicitly stated...what's everyone's opinion on this?

[jblittlefield]

OK, so the rules mention "Endurance required by the mimicked ability". In this case, I assume that this refers to the cost of Invisibility +3 (10 Endurance). I would add this to the 10 Endurance required to cast the spell (and the rules as written seem to support this action).

If the casting succeeds, then 20 Endurance are expended and the character remains invisible for one round. By expending an additional 10 Endurance (1/2 of the casting cost) per round, he may remain invisible until he either ends the effect or runs out of Endurance. No additional casting roll is required.

If the casting fails, the caster loses the 10 Endurance related to the casting, but not the 10 Endurance related to the mimicked power.

It seems to me that in order to spend less Endurance, you will face an increased Difficulty; however, if you are willing and able to spend the Enurance then you're better off mimicking a lower level of ability (at least in the case of Invisibility).

[jblittlefield]

Let's look at another ability: Heal.

Say I have a character with Arcane Magic +5. I want to Heal a target with the equivalent of Heal +5. This costs me 10 Endurance (for the casting) and another 10 Endurance (to Heal 10 points of damage). I face a Difficulty of 12. If I succeed, I lose 20 Endurance and heal the 10 points (this requires a full round during which I can take no other actions). If I fail, I lose 10 Endurance and heal no damage. If I am attacked and forced to abort after making a successful roll, do I lose the full 20 Endurance?

[Clay]

By expending an additional 10 Endurance (1/2 the casting cost) per round...

Again, the rules state that Abilities with rules for usage over a series of rounds (ie. Barrier, Invisibility, etc.) supercede the Arcane Magic rules.

However, some Abilities, like Barrier, can have longer effects with just one casting, and instead follow those rules.

Let's look at another ability: Heal.

Say I have a character with Arcane Magic +5. I want to Heal a target with the equivalent of Heal +5. This costs me 10 Endurance (for the casting) and another 10 Endurance (to Heal 10 points of damage). I face a Difficulty of 12. If I succeed, I lose 20 Endurance and heal the 10 points (this requires a full round during which I can take no other actions). If I fail, I lose 10 Endurance and heal no damage. If I am attacked and forced to abort after making a successful roll, do I lose the full 20 Endurance?

You're using heal wrong. If you were to use Heal +5, you would only need to spend 4 endurance to heal 10 points of Damage. (With Heal +5, you can heal 5 points of damage for 2 Endurance).

Your other question is good one, however. Heal is one of the oldest Abilities in the game, and looking a the text, probably deserved a good raking over. It doesn't really say if an aborted Heal costs any Endurance. For the sake of argument, I'll say Heal has a built in "Charge" flaw, which states that you lose Endurance. Thus, yes, you lose 20 Endurance in all.

Actually, now that I think about it, I don't think the cost for the Ability (in this case, Invisibility) is included as part of the casting cost. The casting cost should be 10, not 20.

This isn't implicitly stated...what's everyone's opinion on this?

After looking over the rules again, I find that casting cost should include all Endurance spent. The point is rather moot, however. Most Abilities that require Endurance are either one-shot (Power Move) or have their own rules for spending additional Endurance (Invisibility), so halving the "casting cost" is never neccessary in a situation in which the actual casting cost is in contention.

[jblittlefield]

OK, after reading everything over again and digesting your (Clay) posts, here's how I'm seeing things. Please feel free to correct me if I'm doing something wrong.

Let's assume a character with Arcane Magic +3 who wants to cast a spell that mimics the effects of Offensive Barrier +3. The Casting roll is against a Difficulty of 8. The "casting" Endurance is 10. The "ability" Endurance is 10. If the Casting roll fails, then the caster is out 10 Endurance. If the roll succeeds, he's out 20 Endurance. The effect may be sustained from round-to-round by expending 10 Endurance per round (as per the Offensive Barrier ability) and using the initial total generated.

Correct?

OK, now howzabout an ability without its own inherent Endurance cost -- Charisma. Same character -- Arcane Magic +3. Same level of effect -- Charisma +3. Casting roll against a Difficulty of 8. Casting Endurance of 10. Success or failure is irrelevant as far as Endurance is concerned -- either way, the character's out 10 Endurance. Effect normally only lasts for one round, but can be maintained from round-to-round by expending 5 Endurance/round (1/2 casting cost). Initial total generated is used throughout.

Correct?

[jblittlefield]

Can power perks and flaws be applied to abilities that are mimicked via Arcane Magic?

I'm thinking mainly in regards to a magic system that requires the players to detail their spells before play begins where Endurance costs are all figured out beforehand, rather than "off the cuff" magic.

Thoughts?

[Clay]

OK, after reading everything over again and digesting your (Clay) posts, here's how I'm seeing things. Please feel free to correct me if I'm doing something wrong.

Let's assume a character with Arcane Magic +3 who wants to cast a spell that mimics the effects of Offensive Barrier +3. The Casting roll is against a Difficulty of 8. The "casting" Endurance is 10. The "ability" Endurance is 10. If the Casting roll fails, then the caster is out 10 Endurance. If the roll succeeds, he's out 20 Endurance. The effect may be sustained from round-to-round by expending 10 Endurance per round (as per the Offensive Barrier ability) and using the initial total generated.

Correct?

Almost. It actually costs nothing to maintain barrier from turn to turn. However, the character is unable to take ANY action except for the barrier. Once you "let down" the barrier, it must be recast for the full point cost (20 Endurance)

If you do not wish to spend the activation
cost with each use, you may also keep
the barrier “up.” You only roll once, and this
total is used as long as the barrier remains
up. While the barrier is up, you can still
spend Endurance to cover any extra damage,
but you may not perform any other action,
not even moving.

OK, now howzabout an ability without its own inherent Endurance cost -- Charisma. Same character -- Arcane Magic +3. Same level of effect -- Charisma +3. Casting roll against a Difficulty of 8. Casting Endurance of 10. Success or failure is irrelevant as far as Endurance is concerned -- either way, the character's out 10 Endurance. Effect normally only lasts for one round, but can be maintained from round-to-round by expending 5 Endurance/round (1/2 casting cost). Initial total generated is used throughout.

Correct?

Correctamundo. :3

Can power perks and flaws be applied to abilities that are mimicked via Arcane Magic?

I'm thinking mainly in regards to a magic system that requires the players to detail their spells before play begins where Endurance costs are all figured out beforehand, rather than "off the cuff" magic.

Thoughts?

As long as the mimicked Abilities allow power perks and flaws, so should the spell.

If you were making a more detailed magic system, I see no reason why you can't apply them to the spell casting itself.

(ie. Giving a Charisma +3 spell the "Slow" Flaw, and thus reducing the casting cost by 5 points)

In the interest of simplicity, this is not mentioned in the rules. Does anyone think it warrants it? The problem is only a handful of the perks and flaws are useful in any way for casting spells.

[jblittlefield]

OK, after reading everything over again and digesting your (Clay) posts, here's how I'm seeing things. Please feel free to correct me if I'm doing something wrong.

Let's assume a character with Arcane Magic +3 who wants to cast a spell that mimics the effects of Offensive Barrier +3. The Casting roll is against a Difficulty of 8. The "casting" Endurance is 10. The "ability" Endurance is 10. If the Casting roll fails, then the caster is out 10 Endurance. If the roll succeeds, he's out 20 Endurance. The effect may be sustained from round-to-round by expending 10 Endurance per round (as per the Offensive Barrier ability) and using the initial total generated.

Correct?

Almost. It actually costs nothing to maintain barrier from turn to turn. However, the character is unable to take ANY action except for the barrier. Once you "let down" the barrier, it must be recast for the full point cost (20 Endurance)

p.50: All effects last one round, but may be kept in effect...

So this only applies if the mimicked ability doesn't "override" the statement with its own rules, correct?

So, if we (as an example), say that Offensive Barrier had no such rule allowing it to be sustained (i.e., it was a one-shot effect) than it could be sustained when mimicked by Arcane Magic by paying Endurance equal to 1/2 the casting cost, right?

I guess what I'm getting at is validation of my assumption that the mimicked ability's rules take precedence over those for Arcane Magic whenever a conflict exists.

[jblittlefield]

Can power perks and flaws be applied to abilities that are mimicked via Arcane Magic?

I'm thinking mainly in regards to a magic system that requires the players to detail their spells before play begins where Endurance costs are all figured out beforehand, rather than "off the cuff" magic.

Thoughts?

As long as the mimicked Abilities allow power perks and flaws, so should the spell. If you were making a more detailed magic system, I see no reason why you can't apply them to the spell casting itself. (ie. Giving a Charisma +3 spell the "Slow" Flaw, and thus reducing the casting cost by 5 points).

In the interest of simplicity, this is not mentioned in the rules. Does anyone think it warrants it? The problem is only a handful of the perks and flaws are useful in any way for casting spells.

I think mentioning that perks and flaws can be applied wherever the GM deems it appropriate should suffice.

[Clay]

I guess what I'm getting at is validation of my assumption that the mimicked ability's rules take precedence over those for Arcane Magic whenever a conflict exists.

You got it! </short and direct answer>

[jblittlefield]

I guess what I'm getting at is validation of my assumption that the mimicked ability's rules take precedence over those for Arcane Magic whenever a conflict exists.

You got it! </short and direct answer>

Thanks, that certainly clears things up.

[Clay]

Something I've noticed:

Arcane Magic states that, if you don't meet certain requirements (like hands being free) the difficulty doubles or even quadruples.

This "difficulty number doubling" does not appear anywhere else in the rules. (Though previously, Invention, Focused worked the sameway)

Should this be revised? And what with? Alternatives I thought up were

A) Halve or Quarter dice rolled (Same as Invention, Focused)
B) -2 or -3 Penalty (Same as most of the game)

What do you guys think? I'm leaning towards the latter.

[jblittlefield]

Something I've noticed:

Arcane Magic states that, if you don't meet certain requirements (like hands being free) the difficulty doubles or even quadruples.

This "difficulty number doubling" does not appear anywhere else in the rules. (Though previously, Invention, Focused worked the sameway)

Should this be revised? And what with? Alternatives I thought up were

A) Halve or Quarter dice rolled (Same as Invention, Focused)
B) -2 or -3 Penalty (Same as most of the game)

What do you guys think? I'm leaning towards the latter.

I think that "certain requirements" should be left to the discretion of the GM. In other words, in your setting, you may require mages to make a few gestures while casting a spell, Bob's setting may require nothing more than speaking a "word of power", while in my world, spells may be cast by a mere thought...

[yoyo]

Can anybody just simplify this conversation? I need help and dont follow everything...